Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

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Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:29 am

It's been a few years since I've taken a crack at a good old-fashioned megathread, but I think it's time we go for Round 4, and hopefully this time, with the game's Unity port just having launched, and the web version hopefully hot on its heels, I can help make a big difference rather than a few small ones. The game has been almost the exact same for over two whole years now, and if the devs want to make the Unity port worth their while they need to start making changes, shaking things up, and revitalizing the game; and they need to do it soon. So, without further ado, here are all of the things I feel should come in Town of Salem 3.0, an update that should launch this year, or very early next.

_____________________________________


Bringing In Coven's Best
You know what's a really great way to generate "new" content quickly and cheaply? Recycle it! Sure, in theory, adding the Tracker and the Hypnotist to the base game devalues the Coven DLC, but if we're being honest that entire package isn't going to grow a playerbase any time soon unless the cheaper base game starts bringing players in more and enticing them to buy Coven in the first place. For now, then, we should bring the best Coven role from each faction to the base game, helping give players a reason to return and giving them a taste of the best Coven has to offer. As for fixing the Coven itself, that can come later - right now the base game should be the devs' main priority.



Shaking Up The TP/LO Meta
Let's face it - the day one Jailor claim meta got old years ago, and the problems that cause it have been around for over four years now, having also been the root cause of Mayor games back in the day. It's time to stop halfheartedly treating only the symptoms and to go for the root causes. Perhaps the most important problem? Town Protectives work too well on being able to guard a early-game claimant from death. To this end, it becomes important to give the scum ways to find and eliminate Town Protectives that stick to obvious early-game targets, and what better way to do that while revitalizing player interest than a new Mafia role to rival the Consigliere? Adding the Osservatore, a Mafia-aligned Lookout/Tracker combo, will help fix this issue and shake up the meta from powerful roles asking for protection immediately and then proceeding to sweep the game. Another important part of this is reducing the likelihood a Town Protective will be able to guard you at all, and to that end, we need a new Town Protective that is much less reliable at protecting its target from death than the Bodyguard and Doctor, and where better to look than the humble Vampire Hunter? By reworking it into the Hunter, a new Town Protective, we can kill three birds in one stone: nerfing the TP/LO Meta, reworking a role designed only to hardcounter Vampires, and making it so that the Hunter appears in many more games, all without removing a Kickstarter-promised role. Elegant.

  • New Mafia Support role: Osservatore (except it can't read whispers)
  • Rework Vampire Hunter into a new Town Protective role: Hunter


Redefining Neutral Evil
As is, Neutral Evil may just be the swingiest non-Any alignment in the game. The sheer amount of pro-scum utility offered by the Witch is not at all met by the Executioner and the Jester, and for Ranked in particular this causes some pretty noticeable and detrimental effects on game balance. To make matters worse, both the Executioner and the Jester have their own issues outside of swing - notably, the Executioner causes ugly kingmaker scenarios, and the Jester brings with its punishment a reason to avoid correct lynches and a crutch for bad scum players. To remedy these issues, Jester should be moved to Neutral Chaos, and Executioner should be entirely reworked into a role whose win condition is to see X many Town players lynched. After these changes, we can add in at new Neutral Evil roles that have the same general win-conditions as and similar power levels to the Witch, allowing Ranked to balance itself around these actually evil Neutral Evil roles. I would personally suggest my own Trickster be added, but there are certainly others that would work well. Lastly, the Witch should lose the ability to see the role of its targets, bringing it more in line with the new Neutral Evil roles and removing its ability to find allies for free, a reward it should have to work for. To help compensate for this, the Witch's controls no longer count as visits.

  • Rework: Executioner becomes Shapeshifter
  • Jester changed to Neutral Chaos
  • Witch no longer sees the role of its targets
  • Witch no longer actually visits the player it is controlling
  • New Neutral Evil role: Trickster


Finally Fixing Spy
This one is also long overdue. Both parts of the original Spy were broken. Reading whispers and being able to read the Mafia's night chat combined into a role that was insanely powerful and decimated the Mafia even in games it didn't spawn in. Unfortunately, the previous statement is still true, as the Spy can see the Mafia's visits passively, causing almost as many issues as it did before! In addition, the new bug ability that was added isn't enough to justify the role's existence if its ability to see visits is removed, so it becomes necessary to rework the role again if we ever want to end up with a role that is actually good for the game. To that end, the Spy should be changed so that it becomes a true, active Town Investigative, but one that operates in a much less linear fashion than the Sheriff and Investigator do. By focusing it on dealing with investigating the connections between different players, rather than going down a list one player at a time, we can create a Spy with a much higher skill ceiling than it has ever had, while also encouraging players to make their own associative reads while using it. And if that isn't the happiest end possible for a role as contentious as the Spy, then I don't know what is. Here is the Spy rework.



Taking Care of Powerful Town
In general, I would say that there are 5 Town roles that stand head and shoulders above the rest, especially if you exclude the current two Town Protectives. These are, in rough order of power, the Jailor, Transporter, Veteran, Retributionist, and Mayor. Of these 5, the Veteran is the only one I wouldn't change, as it comes with significant enough drawbacks that letting it have such an absurdly high skill ceiling is fine. As for the rest, well, they should all see various changes. The Transporter is different from the other four roles in that it is not unique, and I believe that this should remain the case. Thus, to help bring it more in line with the rest of the Town, I would remove its ability to transport itself and remove the notification that you were transported from the game entirely. The role is more than powerful enough to deal with being much harder to confirm, and adding in the Trickster from above will further serve to reduce its ability to confirm itself, making it an extremely high-risk, high-reward role. For the remaining three unique and powerful Town, a new alignment should be created. While the common name for this suggestion is Town Power, it makes more sense to clear up any confusion between it and the other "TP", Town Protective, and just call it Town Leader, or "TL" for short. To prevent having multiple extremely powerful Town roles, there may only be one Town Leader spawned in any game. In order to make them fit into this new category on a relatively even playing field, the Jailor should lose its ability to jail the same target twice in a row, be reduced to having only two executions and only grant basic defense to its targets, while the Mayor should regain the abilities to be healed by Doctors and to whisper. These changes will help bring balance to the more notoriously overpowered members of the Town, and will prevent randomly spawning in a Retributionist and Mayor alongside your Jailor for an almost free win.

  • Transporter may no longer self-transport and no longer notifies its targets that they were transported
  • New alignment consisting of the Jailor, Retributionist, and Mayor: Town Leader
  • Only one Town Leader may spawn in any given game
  • Jailor now only has 2 executions and may not jail the same target twice in a row
  • Jailor now only grants its targets Basic Defense
  • Mayor may now be healed by Doctors
  • Mayor may now whisper


Dealing With Weak Mafia
In general, I would say there are four Mafia roles that are significantly weaker than the rest. These are, in rough order of power, the Blackmailer, Disguiser, Framer, and Forger. The main issue the Blackmailer has is that using its ability reveals it exists and makes its passive whisper-reading useless by virtue of players knowing their whispers are 100% open to the Mafia. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, this is best fixed by removing the Blackmailer's ability to read whispers. In return, it should be buffed such that blackmailed targets can't change their vote once placed for eight seconds, and they shouldn't even be able to say "I am blackmailed." when voted to the stand. This allows the Blackmailer to more aggressively pursue mislynches without their target vote-spamming to indicate they have been blackmailed. As for the Disguiser, it should no longer be required to continuously visit a target to keep disguising as them, allowing you to disguise yourself as a role and then kill the player off without losing your disguise the next night. Additionally, the Disguiser should receive all external feedback messages its target does on the night it disguises as them (exactly like the current Spy), allowing it to better determine where the game is going. The Framer simply needs to be able to make it appear as if their target is visiting someone they are not, and with the Spy rework discussed above, the Framer can now affect all five Town Investigative roles, rather than a measly two. The Forger, which is currently little more than a discount Janitor, needs the most love. It should inherit the Blackmailer's ability to read whispers, helping it to construct believable fake wills. It should also now have its fake wills carry over into the day, allowing the Forger to push mislynches onto a "Disguiser" or erase critical will information more flexibly than a Janitor can. Lastly, it should be able to forge four fake wills rather than three, giving it more uses than a current Janitor if it does decide to go for purely wiping information from wills. With all of these changes made, the weakest Mafia roles should all be much closer to the best.

  • Blackmailer may no longer read whispers
  • Blackmailed players must now wait 8 seconds before changing their vote
  • Blackmailed players may no longer speak on the stand at all
  • Disguiser now retains its last disguise until it adopts a new one
  • Disguiser will receive all external feedback its target does when it disguises (this works exactly like the current Spy)
  • Framer now chooses who their target appears to visit
  • Forger may now read whispers
  • Forger now has 4 forges instead of 3
  • Forged targets will have the forged will show up if they are lynched the day after being forged


Shoring Up Vigilante
The Vigilante can be a powerful role in the right hands. In the wrong hands, however, it can turn an extremely Town-sided situation into a loss extremely quickly. This swing is due in no small part to the Vigilante's suicide guilt mechanic, which essentially automatically doubles the effects of any missed shots with no good reason to do so. Luckily, the fix for this is easy - by reducing the Vigilante's guilt mechanic to match the Jailor's, causing it to lose the ability to kill any more players if it shoots Town rather than shooting itself as well. To compensate for this change, it should lose one bullet, only being able to shoot twice, in order to reduce the hardcarry potential of the role. These changes also have the side benefit of making outed Vigilantes a less insanely powerful target for a Witch to control, cutting the fatalities caused in half. On that note, however, the Witch also needs a change for the benefit of the Vigilante; its magic barrier should only work against attacks made by scum, as opposed to all basic attacks, but should be stronger against them. If a Vigilante has decided to shoot a Witch, you were either playing badly or have been found out, and in both cases you deserve to die.

  • Vigilante now has 2 bullets instead of 3
  • Vigilante no longer kills itself if it shoots another member of the Town; instead, it puts its gun away and can no longer shoot
  • Witch loses the ability to block Town roles' attacks with its magic barrier
  • Witch is now given Invincible defense against all non-Town attacks on the night its magic barrier is activated


Equalizing Neutral Killers
The Serial Killer remains, to this day, the best Neutral Killing role for its preciseness and its consistency, although its weaknesses to Escort, Consort, and Jailor are notable. The most recent changes to the Arsonist made it better, but focused far too much on the Investigator in particular when there are multiple other roles that can catch it. The poor Werewolf, on the other hand, has never been good, due to a lack of consistent kills or being able to control who exactly it kills. All the Serial Killer needs is to give it at least a tiny chance to escape death if it is ever roleblocked, and so the role blocker's death message will now be "You were stabbed by a Serial Killer!" instead of "You were stabbed by the Serial Killer you roleblocked/jailed!". As for the Arsonist, I'm inclined to give it even more ways to remain stealthy and sow chaos amongst investigatives, so allowing the Sheriff to detect it but also detecting doused targets as "Suspicious", just like the Investigator does, seems to work. It still needs a bit more killing power to be around even with the Serial Killer though, so it should be able to ignite once per game on the same night that it douses a target, allowing it to kill more gradually over the course of the game without losing a night to ignite. As for the Werewolf, it just needs a rework to make its kills more consistent. Here is the Werewolf rework.

  • When the Serial Killer attacks a roleblocker, the roleblocker's death message will now be "You were stabbed by a Serial Killer!" instead of "You were stabbed by the Serial Killer you roleblocked/jailed!"
  • Arsonist may now ignite on the same night it douses once per game
  • Arsonist now appears as suspicious to Sheriffs
  • Doused targets now appear as suspicious to Sheriffs
  • Rework: Werewolf


Ranked Refresh
With so many changes and new roles here, it makes complete sense to end this season with this update and begin a new season of Ranked. Without adding Tactical Mafia Kills, it's hard to justify dropping one of the Random Mafia slots, and dropping the Mafioso slot leaves Escort and Jailor way too powerful (as we have discovered in the past). As such, it makes sense to run this new season with a role list that is either the same as the one we have now, or extremely similar to it. If Town Leader is not added, then the Town Support slot should be swapped for a Random Town; however, if Mayor and Retributionist are moved to Town Leader and Transporter is nerfed, then the slot could be left as Town Support. While you could in theory swap out the Jailor slot for a Town Leader slot, I personally believe that Jailor is much more conducive to a competitive Ranked game than Retributionist and puts much less focus on having a great player specifically as your Town Leader than with Mayor.

  • A new Ranked season should begin with the launch of ToS 3.0
  • The role list should stay mostly the same for now
  • Mafia Tactical kills should be added at the start of the next season, and the role list should be changed to accommodate them then


Miscellaneous Improvements
  • Bodyguard can not be healed when sacrificed protecting somebody
  • Janitor now only has 2 cleans instead of 3
  • Janitor now no longer loses a usage of its ability unless it successfully cleans a target


A Word On The Investigator
Until such time as I receive dev confirmation on which of these suggestions are being implemented and when, it is incredibly hard to create an actual Investigator results list for a suggestion that involves reworking several roles and adding so many new ones. Additionally, I am currently on vacation in New Zealand, and so don't have enough internet access to reliably spend time working on an Investigator results list for this suggestion anyways. I may get around to it in the future, but in general I am hopeful that adding new evil counterparts to Town roles (such as the Trickster and Osservatore) will make creating a new list easier than ever before, as the number of Town roles that cannot be fake-claimed by any evil role will drop substantially with the implementation of these suggestions. That being said, however, it is much better to push some large updates out the door now, and worry about fixing the Investigator soon after - the game could really use an exciting new update.

_____________________________________


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is it. I know, I know, comparatively short to my previous megathreads - but I aimed to capture what could reasonably come in an actual Town of Salem update 3.0 in the near future because I honestly believe a large single update is exactly what this game needs to re-kindle the fire in its playerbase, and it needs it pretty quickly if they're going to do it at all. Although I am sure that adding this many roles would be a ton of work, the Coven DLC showed us it is something the devs are willing to do to help secure the future of this game, and I really hope they agree with me enough to do it again now when it's needed most. Obviously, this should kickstart a steam of larger patches than we've had in years now that Unity is here, and I hope to be back up to a normal update schedule by Q2 2020 if all goes well. I really hope we can make this work in a way that will leave me playing this game for years to come.

Thanks for your support, and please don't hesitate at all to give your feedback on anything I've suggested here or remind me of anything I forgot! I look forward to debating with you in the comments below.
Last edited by orangeandblack5 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:43 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:39 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Bringing In Coven's Best
I agree that these two roles should be in the classic version of TOS (they should also be the only roles that should ever moved like this). The expansion is meant to focus on the Coven and more chaotic-killing, which these two roles obviously do not take part in.

Shaking Up The TP/LO Meta
  • New Mafia Support role: Osservatore
  • Rework Vampire Hunter into a new Town Protective role: Hunter
I still love the idea of the Osservatore and I also like the Hunter (Marshal), however, I don't know how kindly the TOS playerbase will take to the removal of the Vampire Hunter. Trust me when I say that many TOS players are completely clueless as to how they can effectively handle Vampires without a role that specifically hardcounters it. Were it actually a ranked role, I would advocate for its replacement, but as it currently stands, I think that the Hunter should simply be a new role instead. Obviously, the Vampire Hunter and Vampire will need some changes (as they are currently very unbalanced, however, it isn't necessary as of now.

Redefining Neutral Evil
  • Executioner changed to Neutral Benign
  • Jester changed to Neutral Chaos
  • Witch no longer sees the role of its targets
  • Witch no longer actually visits the player it is controlling
  • New Neutral Evil role: Trickster
  • New Neutral Evil role: Shapeshifter
I hate the Jester with a burning passion because it goes against the "lynch suspicious players" mindset that a Town role should have. I'm not sure how I feel about the Executioner being moved out of Neutral Evil. I get it, it can win with the Town, which doesn't truly make it EVIL, but it prevents many Town Investigative roles from successfully executing evildoers that they discover via their abilities. It almost feels like a requirement to keep it in that alignment, though, I'm sure you already have a strong argument as to why the Executioner isn't necessary for Neutral Evil. I'm neutral on the Witch as well. The role definitely feels strong, but removing its ability to learn the role of its targets completely feels extreme. Role-seeing for a controlling role is clearly strong, but I think limiting the ability to only being able to determine faction (or maybe even prompting Investigator-like results) would be a better way to go about nerfing the Witch.

Finally Fixing Spy
Yes. The only part of the Spy I wouldn't mind being in the game is the bug, but the visit-seeing is completely broken.

Taking Care of Powerful Town
  • Transporter may no longer self-transport and no longer notifies its targets that they were transported
  • New alignment consisting of the Jailor, Retributionist, and Mayor: Town Leader
  • Only one Town Leader may spawn in any given game
  • Jailor now only has 2 executions and may not jail the same target twice in a row
  • Mayor may now be healed by Doctors
  • Mayor may now whisper
I've always been hesitant to outright remove the notifications that the Transporter produces. Sure, the role is still incredibly strong, however, you have to admit that there are plenty of players that are extremely bad with the role (and would be even worse if the notifications just disappeared). Seeing how the Hypnotist is being added to the base game (at least, in your proposal), I think that the first target should be notified that they were transporter, but not the second. Jailor change is good (also make jail only provide a basic defense). Mayor change is good. Retributionist should be reworked as it still insta-confirms too many players with very little counterplay.

Dealing With Weak Mafia
  • Blackmailer may no longer read whispers
  • Blackmailed players must now wait 8 seconds before changing their vote
  • Blackmailed players may no longer speak on the stand at all
  • Disguiser now retains its last disguise until it adopts a new one
  • Disguiser will receive all external feedback its target does when it disguises (this works exactly like the current Spy)
  • Framer now chooses who their target appears to visit
  • Forger may now read whispers
  • Forger now has 4 forges instead of 3
  • Forged targets will have the forged will show up if they are lynched the day after being forged
Blackmailer change is actually pretty good. Disguiser change is okay. I obviously support the Framer change as that is a part of my rework as well. Forger change is actually a really solid buff that I'm surprised nobody else has thought of.

Shoring Up Vigilante
  • Vigilante now has 2 bullets instead of 3
  • Vigilante no longer kills itself if it shoots another member of the Town; instead, it puts its gun away and can no longer shoot
  • Witch loses the ability to block Town roles' attacks with its magic barrier
Vigilante change is good. I think the Witch change is good, however, I would like it to be changed to this: "The first time you are dealt an attack by an evildoer, gain an invincible defense against all attacks made by evildoers for one night." This prevents the Witch from dying in the unlucky scenario that they are attacked by two evildoers in a single night, allows Town roles to kill the Witch instantly, and makes it so that the Witch isn't at a disadvantage when the Neutral Killing is a role that pierces basic defense (Arsonist and Werewolf).

Equalizing Neutral Killers
  • When the Serial Killer attacks a roleblocker, the roleblocker's death message will now be "You were stabbed by a Serial Killer!" instead of "You were stabbed by the Serial Killer you roleblocked/jailed!"
  • Arsonist may now ignite on the same night it douses once per game
  • Arsonist now appears as suspicious to Sheriffs
  • Doused targets now appear as suspicious to Sheriffs
  • Rework: Werewolf
I'd prefer this for the Arsonist. I'd prefer this for the Werewolf. Your Arsonist change clearly buffs the role, but I don't think it does so correctly (it isn't that bad, though). I'm not a fan of the Werewolf rework. It feels like a stronger Serial Killer, especially when there is no other roleblocking role in the game besides the Jailor.

Ranked Refresh
  • A new Ranked season should begin with the launch of ToS 3.0
  • The role list should stay mostly the same for now
  • Mafia Tactical kills should be added at the start of the next season, and the role list should be changed to accommodate them then
Nice.

Miscellaneous Improvements
  • Bodyguard can not be healed when sacrificed protecting somebody
  • Bodyguard can not protect its target from being doused and will not attack the Arsonist
  • Janitor now only has 2 cleans instead of 3
I've always been a fan of the first Bodyguard change. The second one already exists. The Janitor nerf I feel is unnecessary.

A Word On The Investigator

I'll see if I can make a reworked list that incorporates the role additions and reworks.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:01 pm

Investigative Results

Your target harnesses immense power. They must be a Jailor, Mayor, or Retributionist.
Your target keeps a close eye on others. They must be a Lookout, Tracker, Osservatore, or Witch.
Your target possesses extraordinary intelligence. They must be an Investigator, Spy, Consigliere, or Serial Killer.
Your target prefers to be alone. They must be a Vampire Hunter, Amnesiac, Executioner, or Survivor.
Your target distracts others constantly. They must be an Escort, Transporter, Consort, or Trickster.
Your target utilizes an unusual skill. They must be a Hunter, Medium, Forger, or Janitor.
Your target waits for the perfect moment to strike. They must be a Bodyguard, Sheriff, Godfather, or Arsonist.
Your target witnesses bloodshed regularly. They must be a Veteran, Vigilante, Mafioso, or Werewolf.
Your target employs unorthodox techniques. They must be a Doctor, Blackmailer, Hypnotist, or Jester.
Your target wishes to inflict harm on the townsfolk. They must be a Disguiser, Framer, Shapeshifter, or Vampire.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:42 pm

SK gets fucked royally by these invest results, as Investigator and Spy are both hard to claim with no information abilities.

Also, there’s a reason Witch got Consig powers in the first place: because not having them made it nigh-impossible to figure out what you’re doing before it’s too late and you’re either dead or have been found out. Witch doesn’t need a nerf (its win rate is low enough), and it definitely doesn’t need this.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:50 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:SK gets fucked royally by these invest results, as Investigator and Spy are both hard to claim with no information abilities.

It's really not that difficult to claim Investigator. Additionally, this utilizes Orange's Spy rework, which is extremely easy to claim.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:47 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:SK gets fucked royally by these invest results, as Investigator and Spy are both hard to claim with no information abilities.
It's really not that difficult to claim Investigator. Additionally, this utilizes Orange's Spy rework, which is extremely easy to claim.
Maybe claiming Invest is easier in extremely high ELO where everybody claims by like D3, but elsewhere it tends not to fly. My bad about missing the Spy rework, though.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:29 pm

The only way I support the Janitor having two cleans over three is when a clean is used ONLY when it is successful. Otherwise no for that one
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:00 am

@Kirize12
I believe it's Town Leader over Town Power because of acronyms
I am TP (BG), I am TP (Mayor)

I know people could say TPow but people will eventually get lazy and fall back on TP
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:07 am

Kirize12 wrote:I know why it was changed. I'm saying the reason was dumb.

We do not live in the dictionary. We live in context. If someone says "TP on me", I promise you that person is not talking about Mayor or Ret. (Jailor is questionable, but they would then have just said jailor). I do not want to play a game with someone who, in context, can't tell a difference between Town Protective and Town Power - consider this the separation of the sheep from the goats.

Honestly, I do agree but like it'll just confuse the shizzles outta newer players lol
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:38 am

“John role?”
“I’m TP.”

This is already annoying with people who think that TP includes Transporter. It’ll be even worse with Town Power in the mix. There are contexts, most commonly with claiming, where either one could fit. Inevitably people will get confused or fall on muscle memory, and those people will subsequently confuse everyone else. It’s not as simple as “bad players will get confused, good players won’t”.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby BS4125 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:08 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Bringing In Coven's Best



Shaking Up The TP/LO Meta

  • New Mafia Support role: Osservatore
    I’d rather a current Mafia role that needs major edits to be completely overhauled with this idea, preferably Blackmailer which has the biggest issues rn
  • Rework Vampire Hunter into a new Town Protective role: Hunter
    Marshal is a welcome change and I agree with it being the best way to tackle the Vamp problem


Redefining Neutral Evil

  • Executioner changed to Neutral Benign
    Executioner can’t be NB if it’s goal is to get a Townie lynched, that’s very scum-sided. Idk what you mean by Exe exchanging it’s night immunity with Town, hopefully doesn’t mean a Town member gets night immunity because big no. Kirize’s rework is better
  • Jester changed to Neutral Chaos
    Neutral Chaos needs to be removed tbh, it promotes the use of gamebreaking Neutrals (Vamps should be their own faction). Thing is, in this stage of ToS it’s hard to really remove it, with many Coven roles being NC it’ll be problematic removing or changing them, but in a perfect world NC is gone and Jester stays NE
  • Witch no longer sees the role of its targets
    Yeh kill this
  • Witch no longer actually visits the player it is controlling
    Why?
  • New Neutral Evil role: Trickster
    I don’t see how a NE Transporter is a good role, how are they able to use their ability to increase the likelihood of Town dying? It would just count on random transports to hope that a visit occurs in its favour as it’s not actively causing chaos as a Witch would
  • New Neutral Evil role: Shapeshifter
    Quite underpowered, as it relies on TIs and dying via a lynch to have an impact on the game. I’d say it’s better than the current Jester, so at least there’s that


Finally Fixing Spy



Taking Care of Powerful Town

  • Transporter may no longer self-transport and no longer notifies its targets that they were transported
    Nice
  • New alignment consisting of the Jailor, Retributionist, and Mayor: Town Leader
    Ok, but it’s Town Power and idc about abbreviations and people getting confused, that’s just it’s known name. TPo for Town Power and TPr for Town Protectives
  • Only one Town Leader may spawn in any given game
    Yes
  • Jailor now only has 2 executions and may not jail the same target twice in a row
    Sure I guess
  • Mayor may now be healed by Doctors
    Ok
  • Mayor may now whisper
    Yeh no, I don’t want whisper games back pls


Dealing With Weak Mafia

  • Blackmailer may no longer read whispers
  • Blackmailed players must now wait 8 seconds before changing their vote
  • Blackmailed players may no longer speak on the stand at all
    I’d rather Blackmailer just died in a fire, it’s whole ability breaks the core mechanics of the game, bring everyone gets to discuss in the day and everyone gets a vote. It’s just a cheap ability which pokes a lot of holes in the game format
  • Disguiser now retains its last disguise until it adopts a new one
    Sure
  • Disguiser will receive all external feedback its target does when it disguises (this works exactly like the current Spy)
    Ok
  • Framer now chooses who their target appears to visit
    Good
  • Forger may now read whispers
    Ok?
  • Forger now has 4 forges instead of 3
    Forger’s ability is useless so it makes no difference. Needs a whole overhaul
  • Forged targets will have the forged will show up if they are lynched the day after being forged
    Damn, this isn’t a feature?


Shoring Up Vigilante

  • Vigilante now has 2 bullets instead of 3
    I guess it’s better
  • Vigilante no longer kills itself if it shoots another member of the Town; instead, it puts its gun away and can no longer shoot
    Epic
  • Witch loses the ability to block Town roles' attacks with its magic barrier
    Epic x2


Equalizing Neutral Killers

  • When the Serial Killer attacks a roleblocker, the roleblocker's death message will now be "You were stabbed by a Serial Killer!" instead of "You were stabbed by the Serial Killer you roleblocked/jailed!"
    Yes good
  • Arsonist may now ignite on the same night it douses once per game
    I don’t think this is necessary
  • Arsonist now appears as suspicious to Sheriffs
    Yes
  • Doused targets now appear as suspicious to Sheriffs
    Idk how I feel about this
  • Rework: Werewolf
    How is this not an OP SK? Night reliance is bad as it causes the night actions are taken to be strategy. I prefer TG’s solution


Ranked Refresh

  • A new Ranked season should begin with the launch of ToS 3.0
    No comment
  • The role list should stay mostly the same for now
    Sure
  • Mafia Tactical kills should be added at the start of the next season, and the role list should be changed to accommodate them then
    If I could only add one thing to ToS, this‘d be it


Miscellaneous Improvements
  • Bodyguard can not be healed when sacrificed protecting somebody
    Good
  • Janitor now only has 2 cleans instead of 3
    Janitor doesn’t need a nerf


A Word On The Investigator

Invest is trash so it’s ok

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:50 pm

People still say that, which is my point. People use and will continue to use "TP", which will just cause confusion when that can now mean two different sub-alignments. Also, having Town Power and Town Protective share an acronym would be inconsistent with the rest of the sub-alignments. No other two share an acronym, so why should Town Protective and Town Power have to? It reads like intentionally opening up opportunity for people to fuck it up and confuse others, and then blaming the players when this happens.

I get that you're in love with your chosen name, but I'm already seeing the clusterfuck it will create.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:10 pm

But if someone else fucks it up and then confuses you because you assume they're using it correctly, is that your fault? No, not really.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:55 pm

Just putting the thought out there, maybe if tactical mafia kills are implemented. Give GF a single shot Strongman kill or somethin'?
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:24 pm

By Strongman, do you mean Powerful, or Unstoppable?
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:38 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:By Strongman, do you mean Powerful, or Unstoppable?

I was thinking Powerful but bypasses TPs? Unstoppable would stop TPs but that's overpowered as shite. Is that too strong?
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:02 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:By Strongman, do you mean Powerful, or Unstoppable?
I was thinking Powerful but bypasses TPs? Unstoppable would stop TPs but that's overpowered as shite. Is that too strong?
The only thing that gives Powerful defense is TPs and Jailor. If you want it to bypass TP, just give it Unstoppable power and call it a day. You only get one shot at it anyway, and you can still die to BGs and the like while doing it, so it's not that OP.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:21 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:By Strongman, do you mean Powerful, or Unstoppable?
I was thinking Powerful but bypasses TPs? Unstoppable would stop TPs but that's overpowered as shite. Is that too strong?
The only thing that gives Powerful defense is TPs and Jailor. If you want it to bypass TP, just give it Unstoppable power and call it a day. You only get one shot at it anyway, and you can still die to BGs and the like while doing it, so it's not that OP.

Yeah true, so if that gets implemented would it be balanced? Just gives GF something above just the factional kill + immunity.
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On-site FM Record: 11-0-11
Spoiler: Latest Town Game: VFM75 - Citizen - Win
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:30 am

Kirize12 wrote:If there is any scenario in which a mafia member can kill an NK at night, that's not a game I want to play.

The factional kill is, well, factional - it should be the same regardless of which mafia member carries the kill (which would also mean a Consort who is killing instead of roleblocking can have their kill stopped by an Escort). But never under any circumstances should an NK be able to be killed at night, esp. by the mafia.

I just meant bypassing TPs, not killing SK's etc
EDIT: And only once, minimises the TP/LO meta somewhat perhaps
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On-site FM Record: 11-0-11
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:09 am

I like the changes although I think that they will create big difference between low (town sided) and high elo (mafia sided). Also I have sentiment to challanging evils. Winning in legacy season with old Arsonist felt amazing.

I would start with buffing forger, blackmailer and nerfing transporter. Then test how it impacts the game.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby Royee » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:39 pm

just delete all of the roles, add citizens, goons and a cop and make it fm kek.
there are so many wrong things here.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby Royee » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:43 am

Kirize12 wrote:
Royee wrote:just delete all of the roles, add citizens, goons and a cop and make it fm kek.
there are so many wrong things here.

can we delete ur account first

As a league player ur insult is nothing
I made an actual good point. Perhaps people will learn to play that way.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:22 pm

Royee wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Royee wrote:just delete all of the roles, add citizens, goons and a cop and make it fm kek.
there are so many wrong things here.

can we delete ur account first

As a league player ur insult is nothing
I made an actual good point. Perhaps people will learn to play that way.

The people who leave when they get a role they don't like would leave more often if they flip Citizen and isn't that one special PR character.
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On-site FM Record: 11-0-11
Spoiler: Latest Town Game: VFM75 - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: SFM79 - Coroner - Win
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby Royee » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:41 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Royee wrote:just delete all of the roles, add citizens, goons and a cop and make it fm kek.
there are so many wrong things here.

can we delete ur account first

As a league player ur insult is nothing
I made an actual good point. Perhaps people will learn to play that way.

The people who leave when they get a role they don't like would leave more often if they flip Citizen and isn't that one special PR character.

That is just a disadvantage when you roll cit. But it requires from you to play and think without relying on your role.
I personally like to play as citizen.
You will never know whether people like to play as cit till u won't try.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:06 am

Kirize12 wrote:
Royee wrote:That is just a disadvantage when you roll cit. But it requires from you to play and think without relying on your role.
I personally like to play as citizen.
You will never know whether people like to play as cit till u won't try.

people leave as mediuum.

Yeah exactly, Citizen would just make the game boring as shit anyway. Sure Citizens are cool for games like Forum Mafia and local Mafia/Werewolf games with friends or a convention but in a game like this, with people who leave as weak roles there would only be more leavers than there already are and thus the game would just fall flat and die out.

If you throw in a game where everyone is a goon/citizen with one cop it's just boring as shit for half an hour as there are less chances for scum to slip up then it's practically a ranked game of 'lynch randomly until the cop finds someone' game. So no
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