Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby WiseNj58 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:13 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:You don't have to play Ranked to be good at the game, or understand balance. This just reads like pulling rank for the sake of pulling rank (and being a dick to boot).




.........but I'm talking about ranked gameplay? It's like watching LeBron James watch his kids games, yeah the high school coach might know what he's talking about but someone who has spent hundreds of hours invested in something they enjoy is probably better.

It's just like anything else, you wouldn't tell a Pilot how to fly a plane would you? I am talking about ranked gameplay, leave it to people who actually play ranked.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:11 pm

WiseNj58 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:You don't have to play Ranked to be good at the game, or understand balance. This just reads like pulling rank for the sake of pulling rank (and being a dick to boot).




.........but I'm talking about ranked gameplay? It's like watching LeBron James watch his kids games, yeah the high school coach might know what he's talking about but someone who has spent hundreds of hours invested in something they enjoy is probably better.

It's just like anything else, you wouldn't tell a Pilot how to fly a plane would you? I am talking about ranked gameplay, leave it to people who actually play ranked.

*yawn*

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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby ColbyBryant » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:33 am

Kirize12 wrote:if you think jester needs basic defense you have no place in a competitive mafia game


From a ranked perspective this is a pretty bad take, Jester is the only faction you can lose N1. NK/Exe have immunity. Witch has basic defense. Town and Mafia have teammates who can win for them.
That's the idea behind basic defense Jester at least.

I would support the change not allowing Jailor to jail twice in a row.
ELO total rework would be needed. You can grind elo at a 38% winrate (which literally 99% of players have over), which means elo is more of an experience stat than a "skill" stat. Master players have to rely on winrate which they can only find out using the API which the keys are not handed out publicly.

Public API/Ret removal or rework from ranked/Elo rework should do the trick for ranked players. I would support more changes but those are the most important.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:46 am

WiseNj58 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
WiseNj58 wrote:remove forger from the game.

the only solid thing in your post



I mean it's quite obvious you don't play ranked then. Ask anyone in the top 20 who is actually good (Curry, yeeZy, rushed, Wind, Benoit, Elise, Holly, myself, Sunflower, hell even Layla would probably agree) and they'll tell you the three things I suggested are spot on. Why do people who know nothing of the ranked community comment on how the ranked community should be run? Quite weird


EDIT: haha, 1554 elo with a Ranked win loss rate of 49.4%. Nice one mate, please don't tell me what is solid when you aren't even a plat LOL


because the ranked community consists of more people than just the top 20 players. Problem is, the gameplay is quite different from one point of the spectrum to the other, and while the top players can tell what the other top players are going to do with specific roles, and basically read every players role by day 3, and think about what 15 different roles are going to do, and where theyre going to be in the 30 seconds of night, the majority of the community can only think about what their own role will be doing, or maybe what 2 or 3 different roles will be doing. And another quarter will just be doing random stuff cos they have no idea about anything, so luck plays a big part there ;)

So I guess we may as well close the thread, and let the devs contact the top 20 players and let them decide what needs changing....
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:20 am

Flake wrote:
WiseNj58 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
WiseNj58 wrote:remove forger from the game.

the only solid thing in your post



I mean it's quite obvious you don't play ranked then. Ask anyone in the top 20 who is actually good (Curry, yeeZy, rushed, Wind, Benoit, Elise, Holly, myself, Sunflower, hell even Layla would probably agree) and they'll tell you the three things I suggested are spot on. Why do people who know nothing of the ranked community comment on how the ranked community should be run? Quite weird


EDIT: haha, 1554 elo with a Ranked win loss rate of 49.4%. Nice one mate, please don't tell me what is solid when you aren't even a plat LOL

imagine thinking your ranking in a broken elo system actually means anything omegalul


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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby gorilla578 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:05 pm

Alright before this thread gets derailed to hell.

I think that the Spy rework might be nuts by itself. If the Jailor outs himself on the first or second day (which they usually do), then you have have an obnoxious way to catch Mafia or confirm a lot of people.

N1: Jailor
N2: Orangeandblack (same)
N3: Gorilla578 (Different)
D4: Alright bois, Gorilla is NOT town, let's hang him!

The flipside of this is that at least I'm not being spoon fed but I'm still skeptical.

Also, I think that Ret should be nerfed directly, whether of not it gets put into some Power category. If they won't nerf Ret, give us a Mafia Ret so Rets and their revived target can't be trusted as easily anymore.

Mafia Lookout is alright as long as I get to watch my own Mafia.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:43 pm

The downsides of this over Sheriff are...?
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:47 pm

I feel the Spy change is perfectly fine IF the following things occur; frames/hexes/douses will change the Spy results accordingly, Godfather matches with Town and not Mafia.

Just so it's as powerful as the Sheriff but can be used in a way which is powerful/weak depending on how it's played.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby gorilla578 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:12 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:The downsides of this over Sheriff are...?


It's a bit slower maybe but that doesn't really compensate for the fact I can peg myself on a confirmed Power Role and either confirm a lot of Townies or sweep the entire Mafia. It could work but not with Jailor, and Ret being so easy to confirm and Lookout being able to confirm others too easily.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:54 pm

I still fail to see how Sheriff dodges this
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby gorilla578 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:46 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:I still fail to see how Sheriff dodges this


We're not talking about the Sheriff man. I'm criticizing the Spy's role idea for the reasons I mentioned. The Sheriff part you're thinking off came when someone else commented saying he was agreeing with me saying it's a buffed up Sheriff with the way Town confirmability works currently.

edit: I just want you to either concede or come up with a counterargument to my points already but I can tell you seem tired as hell since it's late due to the fact you're responses don't seem to make sense.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby BS4125 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:14 pm

Flake wrote:
gorilla578 wrote:Alright before this thread gets derailed to hell.

I think that the Spy rework might be nuts by itself. If the Jailor outs himself on the first or second day (which they usually do), then you have have an obnoxious way to catch Mafia or confirm a lot of people.

N1: Jailor
N2: Orangeandblack (same)
N3: Gorilla578 (Different)
D4: Alright bois, Gorilla is NOT town, let's hang him!

The flipside of this is that at least I'm not being spoon fed but I'm still skeptical.

Also, I think that Ret should be nerfed directly, whether of not it gets put into some Power category. If they won't nerf Ret, give us a Mafia Ret so Rets and their revived target can't be trusted as easily anymore.

Mafia Lookout is alright as long as I get to watch my own Mafia.

oh

someone that actually understands that parity cop would be a bad idea in this game because you can just cling to confirmable roles and become a significantly more scary sheriff.

like the role would be fine if the main confirmability issues in this game were fixed. but if they're not going to be it's just not a good idea

that being said it'd still be significantly better than spy even then so. but there's definitely a better rework for spy than parity cop assuming confirmability issues will remain as they are.

How is it a scarier Sheriff?
Sheriff can discover Mafia in one night, whereas the rework requires two nights to find any scum role - it’s weaker and slower in that aspect which is balanced with its ability to find Neutral roles

Plus the role definitely buffs the Framer, in that it affects the whole chain if even one is framed

Though I do think that the role is built around NB being in the game, which correct me if I’m wrong but it’s not seen in ranked anymore, so there isn’t enough cover from the comparisons with those who are confirmed which NBs would probably provide with claim space

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lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby gorilla578 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:47 pm

BS4125 wrote:How is it a scarier Sheriff?
Sheriff can discover Mafia in one night, whereas the rework requires two nights to find any scum role - it’s weaker and slower in that aspect which is balanced with its ability to find Neutral roles

Plus the role definitely buffs the Framer, in that it affects the whole chain if even one is framed

Though I do think that the role is built around NB being in the game, which correct me if I’m wrong but it’s not seen in ranked anymore, so there isn’t enough cover from the comparisons with those who are confirmed which NBs would probably provide with claim space


I'm not concerned about its ability to find Mafia too quickly, I'm concerned that Spies will simply sit on Day 1 Jailor reveals and confirm multiple people too easily especially since there is very little consequence of being outed as a Jailor.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:57 pm

Sorry it's been so long - a combination of being a bit sick and traveling all day in places largely devoid of internet have led me to be largely unable to respond to this thread. That changes now.

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DragonClaw66 wrote:I still love the idea of the Osservatore and I also like the Hunter (Marshal), however, I don't know how kindly the TOS playerbase will take to the removal of the Vampire Hunter. Trust me when I say that many TOS players are completely clueless as to how they can effectively handle Vampires without a role that specifically hardcounters it. Were it actually a ranked role, I would advocate for its replacement, but as it currently stands, I think that the Hunter should simply be a new role instead. Obviously, the Vampire Hunter and Vampire will need some changes (as they are currently very unbalanced, however, it isn't necessary as of now.

I would be fine with this, I suppose, as VH isn't in Ranked anyways - it still feels bad to leave VH in the game though, and so while I won't at all oppose adding Marshal on top of VH, I think I'll keep suggesting a replacement instead.

DragonClaw66 wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about the Executioner being moved out of Neutral Evil. I get it, it can win with the Town, which doesn't truly make it EVIL, but it prevents many Town Investigative roles from successfully executing evildoers that they discover via their abilities. It almost feels like a requirement to keep it in that alignment, though, I'm sure you already have a strong argument as to why the Executioner isn't necessary for Neutral Evil. I'm neutral on the Witch as well. The role definitely feels strong, but removing its ability to learn the role of its targets completely feels extreme. Role-seeing for a controlling role is clearly strong, but I think limiting the ability to only being able to determine faction (or maybe even prompting Investigator-like results) would be a better way to go about nerfing the Witch.

For Executioner, it's really a matter of swing. As-is, the Executioner will never be as strong against the Town as the Witch without a serious overhaul, to the point where just moving it to Neutral Benign is a much faster way to take care of it. I would not be against reworking it and bringing it back in the future, but there are roles much more deserving of the dev time. I may add an Executioner rework to this later, if I have time and think of something I like.

As for the Witch, it's again a matter of swing, but this time the pure utility Consig!Witch brings to the table is just too high. Being able to eat Vig shots is insane, and getting the exact role of its targets lets it find teammates way more easily than it should be able to. This both takes away from the skill cieling of the Witch in ways that are less than ideal, and also means that other NEs have to be on the same insanely good power level in order to prevent NE from continuing to be extremely swingy. At the end of the day, a role that was already powerful before getting either of these buffs will be just fine to go back but keep the autovest for scum only.

DragonClaw66 wrote:I've always been hesitant to outright remove the notifications that the Transporter produces. Sure, the role is still incredibly strong, however, you have to admit that there are plenty of players that are extremely bad with the role (and would be even worse if the notifications just disappeared).

I choose to believe that we shouldn't balance for players that feel the need to push buttons because they can with no thought to the consequences.

DragonClaw66 wrote:Jailor change is good (also make jail only provide a basic defense).

I'm hesitant to let this affect my new Werewolf, but can see how letting Arsonist burn and old Werewolf maul Jailed targets makes sense. I think I'll add this but specify that my Werewolf now gets a basic attack instead, which I didn't actually do.

DragonClaw66 wrote:Retributionist should be reworked as it still insta-confirms too many players with very little counterplay.

This suggestion removes it from Ranked (via having Jailor confirmed on the role list), and so I don't think this change is immediately necessary. Plus, a good Jailor is better than the best Retributionist.

DragonClaw66 wrote:Forger change is actually a really solid buff that I'm surprised nobody else has thought of.

Thanks - the name of the game here was small changes to make the weaker Mafia roles somewhat viable with minimal work. I'd be all for a few reworks of them later on, but again I think we should tweak things that can be improved by tweaks and save the full reworks for things that need them.

DragonClaw66 wrote:I think the Witch change is good, however, I would like it to be changed to this: "The first time you are dealt an attack by an evildoer, gain an invincible defense against all attacks made by evildoers for one night." This prevents the Witch from dying in the unlucky scenario that they are attacked by two evildoers in a single night, allows Town roles to kill the Witch instantly, and makes it so that the Witch isn't at a disadvantage when the Neutral Killing is a role that pierces basic defense (Arsonist and Werewolf).

I am okay with this.

DragonClaw66 wrote:I'd prefer this for the Arsonist. Your Arsonist change clearly buffs the role, but I don't think it does so correctly (it isn't that bad, though).

I see where you are coming from, I really do, but I think it behooves the Arsonist more to be a very different NK, play the long game, and go for deception over killing, as this provides some varied gameplay experiences and forces people to play 33% of their games without relying on the binary Town Investigative roles. Would not be against a change similar to this one instead though, although I don't see the point of building stored douses in this manner if you also reclaim a douse every time a doused target dies. That feels like it's leaning a bit too hard into having surefire douses.

DragonClaw66 wrote:I'd prefer this for the Werewolf. I'm not a fan of the Werewolf rework. It feels like a stronger Serial Killer, especially when there is no other roleblocking role in the game besides the Jailor.

That is surprisingly similar to what I came up with, and although I don't like the fact that it has a KPN of less than 1, I am still on board with this idea. I'll probably see if Parallax is still around, and if not I'll just reformat my Werewolf to use this system so I can edit it if I want to.

DragonClaw66 wrote:The Janitor nerf I feel is unnecessary.

Janitor is far and away the best Mafia Support role. It can take a slight nerf here. However, I have also now made it so that Janitor only loses charges on successful cleans, which both keeps the nerf in check and helps make it a more consistent role.

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MysticMismagius wrote:Also, there’s a reason Witch got Consig powers in the first place: because not having them made it nigh-impossible to figure out what you’re doing before it’s too late and you’re either dead or have been found out. Witch doesn’t need a nerf (its win rate is low enough), and it definitely doesn’t need this.

I don't know where you seem to be pulling these win-rate statistics from (if there are official ones, I'd love to see them), but I'd rather have a role with a high skill cieling every time. If it needs a buff, it shouldn't be this. It was still the strongest NE before the consig results and the shield, and I'm sure it will be fine without the consig powers. If it's not, I'd rather buff it somewhere else than make it investigative. That particular power negatively affects things too much.

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JacksonVirgo wrote:The only way I support the Janitor having two cleans over three is when a clean is used ONLY when it is successful. Otherwise no for that one

Done.

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Kirize12 wrote:I'll permanently favor being able to Track+Watch, but if Nurse gets added I could see this being a thing.

Considering the Observer in Throne of Lies has made it blatantly obvious that that combination is extremely strong, I no longer wish to make Osservatore the best Mafia Support by such a large margin. It's strong enough without Tracking, giving it the ability just lets it handle niche cases and Tracker claims. I also have no idea what Nurse is.

Kirize12 wrote:Is Executioner my copy? If not, then hard no.

There is no way current Executioner will be a good NE without a rework. As I have not suggested one yet, I am unwilling to leave it in NE.

Kirize12 wrote:Hard no on a neutral transporter. Maybe a Hijacker?

I have no idea what a Hijacker is off the top of my head, but a Mafia transporter is always going to be way too powerful, while a neutral Transporter can be a very effective NE with a high skill cieling. I don't see why you dislike the idea so much.

Kirize12 wrote:Town Power*

I refuse to comment on this further, but caring excessively about what something is called as opposed to what it does is, frankly, unbecoming. Both names work, just because Power was first doens't make it better, and if there is even a slightly better argument for another name, wanting to stick to an old one out of familiarity rather than reason is illogical. End of story.

Kirize12 wrote:I really don't like the blackmailer in general but I suppose it's a step up.

I don't either, but would rather dev time for reworks and new roles be spent elsewhere at the moment.

Kirize12 wrote:Same thing as Blackmailer #RemoveForger

Same as Blackmailer - not worth the time to rework, and I think trying changes is more likely to happen than being removed, as it is a Kickstarter-promised role.

Kirize12 wrote:Leaning no. Convince me

Giving Arsonist one free ignition allows it to get +1 kill opportunities per game. As it is a relatively weak role, I think this is sensical.

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BS4125 wrote:I’d rather a current Mafia role that needs major edits to be completely overhauled with this idea, preferably Blackmailer which has the biggest issues rn

While I am not against replacing Blackmailer with Osservatore whatsoever, I do think that it's hard to justify calling the Mafia Lookout Blackmailer, and I'd rather focus on "positive" changes for now (reworks and additions) and make some much needed "negative" changes later. It's probably better for the game's community and ultimately its health. If the devs do wanna go with repeal and replace, though, I'm all for it.

BS4125 wrote:Executioner can’t be NB if it’s goal is to get a Townie lynched, that’s very scum-sided. Idk what you mean by Exe exchanging it’s night immunity with Town, hopefully doesn’t mean a Town member gets night immunity because big no. Kirize’s rework is better

Executioner can be NB if its goal is to get a Townie lynched, as it's not hugely scum-sided (if it were, you wouldn't see Executioners offering the Town a deal to side with them as a pseudo-Bulletproof if they'll lynch the Executioner's target for them during the day). In the end, this role needs a rework to be in NE, and although I may work on that later, for now it just doesn't belong in NE in Ranked.

BS4125 wrote:in a perfect world NC is gone and Jester stays NE

In a perfect world, Jester never existed. I honestly cannot at all see why anyone would ever argue for Jester's inclusion in Ranked in any capacity, much less in the same bracket as roles like Witch.

BS4125 wrote:Why?

The reason I would make Witch controls no longer count as visits is to buff the role after nerfing its investigative ability and its resistance to Vigilante. Being safe from Veterans, Lookouts, and Trackers is worth it.

BS4125 wrote:I don’t see how a NE Transporter is a good role, how are they able to use their ability to increase the likelihood of Town dying? It would just count on random transports to hope that a visit occurs in its favour as it’s not actively causing chaos as a Witch would

I disagree with this mentality, as transporters can do more than merely secure kills. Not only can a Neutral transporter save scummy people from being investigated, it can save obvious Vig targets, move protection to scum, and do many other things that help achieve a scum victory. It only really secures kills in the instance where it has found and is actively working with the scum to do so - and if you've managed that, you deserve the huge power boost that comes with that combo.

BS4125 wrote:Quite underpowered, as it relies on TIs and dying via a lynch to have an impact on the game. I’d say it’s better than the current Jester, so at least there’s that

I'm open to ideas for Shapeshifter buffs. That being said, there's always at least two TI's, and it can always get lynched. Flipping as Town can cause a mislynch on a real Town role, wasting a day and leaving the Town feeling as if nothing is working, while flipping as scum can lead the Town to think they have an upper hand when they don't. Full control over your flip means it is much better at achieving these scenarios than Disguiser could ever be.

BS4125 wrote:Yeh no, I don’t want whisper games back pls

Mayor was never the problem, whisper games still exist, and several other suggestions I've made will be more effective at killing whisper games than removing them from Mayor ever was.

BS4125 wrote:I’d rather Blackmailer just died in a fire, it’s whole ability breaks the core mechanics of the game, being everyone gets to discuss in the day and everyone gets a vote. It’s just a cheap ability which pokes a lot of holes in the game format

While I don't disagree, as stated above I'd rather add things now to draw in more players to what seems to be a dying game, then cut things later. This just makes the most sense for game health.

BS4125 wrote:Forger’s ability is useless so it makes no difference. Needs a whole overhaul

On one hand, sure - on the other hand, don't undervalue four will cleanses. That's a fair bit of power. (Carrying over to the day also combos well with Blackmailer, making one of the worst possible combos for RMs actually good if you aggressively push mislynches)

BS4125 wrote:How is this not an OP SK? Night reliance is bad as it causes the night actions are taken to be strategy. I prefer TG’s solution

Yes I do like the butcher as well, but the lack of full killing power may be an issue. Still, that's an easy fix.

BS4125 wrote:Janitor doesn’t need a nerf

Hard disagree - the Janitor is far and away the best Mafia role, having two cleans that are only used if successful brings it much more in line with the rest while also increasing its consistency.

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Royee wrote:just delete all of the roles, add citizens, goons and a cop and make it fm kek.
there are so many wrong things here.

I play a lot of FM, but I am under no impression that ToS would be best served by trying to be just like FM.

I am extremely curious what these "many wrong things" are, and why they are wrong, however.

Royee wrote:That is just a disadvantage when you roll cit. But it requires from you to play and think without relying on your role.
I personally like to play as citizen.
You will never know whether people like to play as cit till u won't try.

I too love Citizen. It is, in fact, my personal favorite role.

But the game would need some really massive restructuring if it were to be added, and it is for that reason alone that I do not forsee it happening.

Royee wrote:Anyway the OP suggestions are too much and unnecessary to the game.

You would have hated ToS 2.0 :lol:

Regardless, I don't think something has to be necessary to be a good idea and worth doing. Technically, the game functions as-is just fine, and no change is necessary at all for it to be a game that is playable.

But I think stopping there is a mistake. I quite enjoy this game, and want it to remain playable, and in fact be much more than just playable. With player activity seemingly falling over the two years of no real updates preceding Unity, we're at a make-or-break point where the devs need to bring people back in a big way if they don't want to let all the work they did on Unity go to waste because the game dies. A big content drop, refreshing the game on all levels, is far and away the best way to do this.

Additionally, the changes I suggest are ones that my years of experience working on Mafia-like and Werewolf-like game balancing lead me to believe are most likely to lead to better player engagement with the game's mechanics, which is always going to be a good thing. A rising tide lifts all boats, as they say.

In short, unless you have any good reason why we should follow up stagnation with continued stagnation without expecting the death of the game, or unless you wish to offer and specific feedback to improve what I have suggested, I can't get anything useful out of what you are saying.

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Flake wrote:the only ones i take any decent issue with are addition of Hypnotist because it's bastard (though it's probably a good addition for non-ranked/rp modes, but definitely not for ranked/rp) and addition of Shapeshifter because it's bastard the role (probably just bad in all respects)

I think the added variety for the low programming cost of Hypnotist is worth it at this stage.
Shapeshifter is designed to be a Jester rework, and so must inherently be at least somewhat bastard to support the idea of getting lynched to further a wincon. It is nowhere close to as bad as current Jester is.

Flake wrote:though i will say that quite a few changes, while significantly better than in the current version of the game, are not as good as they could be imo. namely the spy and werewolf reworks.

I don't see many better ways to rework the Spy than making it one of the best Investigative roles in Mafia.

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Royee wrote:mafia style lookout? who would that help? the 1 lynch delay before they find out you are osservatore? the idiotic maf member who will confirm town 1 by 1?
does tos really need a marshal? there are tons of other tp roles, why marshal?
op just killed the idea of ne.
the new spy is just parity cop.
forger needs to be removed and mafia need that tactical kill change.
just change the role list in a way that max tpower is 1.
arso is fine as it is. same with sk.
everything else should be fine

  • Mafia Lookout is going to be one of the best Mafia roles, so it helps a lot of people. It also helps end the D1 Jailor claim meta, which is huge in and of itself.
  • There are not tons of other TP roles, there are two. As for why Marshal over another role suggestion, which is what I assume you mean, it's because that's the only one that can realistically replace Vampire Hunter.
  • I have literally no idea what you think "the idea of NE" is, but I'm very interested to hear how it isn't Neutral roles that are against town (y'know, Evil).
  • Yes, Spy is parity cop.
  • I'm okay with removing Forger, but it was a Kickstarter promise, and Mafia Tactical would take a lot longer to implement that just changing a few roles, so that should come later.
  • Keeping confimed Jailor does mean that max TL is one.
  • I'm still pretty sure Arso is weaker than SK, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it saw no changes.
  • Glad you're on board with the rest I guess lol

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kyuss420 wrote:I dont know why he (OP) describes hypno as ''1 of covens finest''.

This is easy - what other Coven-exclusive roles are better? :P

In short, it's worth having to bring in for literal free variety. If it's still as weak as you think in the lower-powered normal games, we can throw some buffs at it.

But this game needs changes to draw in players and adding this and Tracker to the base game is literally the single easiest way to do that.

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WiseNj58 wrote:You're trying to rework the entire game, and it's really not needed. There's only a couple things that need to be fixed realistically.

Even if we assume that is true, the game needs changes to maintain a playerbase.

WiseNj58 wrote:Adding all these new roles and changing literally 60% of the roles and how they operate just isn't feasible.

Again, it basically needs to be. Something big needs to happen or this game will die.

WiseNj58 wrote:1. Jester gets basic immunity.

2. Spy can't see framer visits

3. Add Ambusher to mafia roles, remove forger from the game.

For 1, while I can see where you are coming from, as Jester is a weak Neutral Evil, the problem really is that it just isn't a Neutral Evil at its core, so of course it's weak in that role. It's already a really easy role to play, so I KNOW I wouldn't ever give it immunity to Vigs, because otherwise it's just too damn easy. The obvious solution is to instead remove the problem from Ranked, rather than make things worse by trying to force Jester into a Neutral Evil role it just can't fill.

For 2, sure that could work, but then you still have Spy decimating Mafia whenever there isn't a Framer. I don't see any benefit to that at all.

For 3, lol no. Osservatore is a much better way to take care of the TP/LO meta, as it doesn't rely on RNG and instead allows smart players to reap rewards for good play. Plus, upping the Mafia KPN is going to radically change how the game plays out, introducing a ton of swing between games where the Mafia has an Ambusher and ones where it doesn't. Think about that for a few seconds and I'm sure you'll see how it becomes impossible to balance the game so that Mafia with an Abusher and Mafia without one are about equal in power.

WiseNj58 wrote:Also, as a bonus, I'm not going to go on and on about the Retributionist role, but one of the better solutions I've seen is make it required that they not only live until the end of the game, but also that they can revive from any faction. Again, simplicity.

I'm not sold that a Neutral Benign Retributionist is the way to go, but hey, at least if we moved them to NB it would be out of Ranked.

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WiseNj58 wrote:I mean it's quite obvious you don't play ranked then. Ask anyone in the top 20 who is actually good (Curry, yeeZy, rushed, Wind, Benoit, Elise, Holly, myself, Sunflower, hell even Layla would probably agree) and they'll tell you the three things I suggested are spot on. Why do people who know nothing of the ranked community comment on how the ranked community should be run? Quite weird


WiseNj58 wrote:.........but I'm talking about ranked gameplay? It's like watching LeBron James watch his kids games, yeah the high school coach might know what he's talking about but someone who has spent hundreds of hours invested in something they enjoy is probably better.

It's just like anything else, you wouldn't tell a Pilot how to fly a plane would you? I am talking about ranked gameplay, leave it to people who actually play ranked.


I will be the first to admit I have never been in the top 20 players of Ranked.

Although, given that the elo system strongly favors playtime, that's not at all a surprise to me. I'm too busy to sink as much time into this game as I would need to get there, and I'm not about to priotize a rank in Town of Salem over my own life ambitions.

Regardless of this, however, I have been playing Mafia- and Werewolf-related games semi-professionally, and have competed in international championships for them. I have helped work on balancing changes for no fewer than five Mafia-based video games, including Town of Salem, alongside my similar roles in two Forum Mafia communities. All of these things I have been doing for well over five years, since before Town of Salem even had different ranks.

In short, my standing in Ranked would be inconsecuential in the face of the rest of my qualifications to be having this discussion even if I were top 20. However, I choose to believe that the points people make are more important than the positions they hold, and so I'm not going to go around ragging on people in a way that only makes me look like a dick when it's much more helpful to everyone if we instead debate their logic and opinions. I suggest you do the same.

If you are not willing to do so, I'd love to talk to any of the others you listed who are, and get some feedback from those who play this game the most without having them insult everyone else, just because they choose to spend their time doing things besides grinding to Master.

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ColbyBryant wrote:From a ranked perspective this is a pretty bad take, Jester is the only faction you can lose N1. NK/Exe have immunity. Witch has basic defense. Town and Mafia have teammates who can win for them.
That's the idea behind basic defense Jester at least.

The issue, as described above, is that giving Jester full basic defense is that you're making an already brainlessly easy role even easier. This is a bit less true if you given them N1-only defense, which I have seen suggested before, but I'm not for this either because it's liable to end up with the lower levels of the playerbase begging for this for every role (proof: there are already way too many posts asking for Medium to get N1 immunity). At the end of the day, Jester isn't fulfilling a role as a Neutral Evil anyways, and so it's better to just be rid of it from Ranked, rather than worry about the odd cases where it loses night one.

ColbyBryant wrote:I would support the change not allowing Jailor to jail twice in a row.

Personally I've never been a huge fan of making things non-consecutive, as it makes it somewhat more arbitrary whether you can protect someone or not, but with Jailor I think it just makes sense.

ColbyBryant wrote:ELO total rework would be needed. You can grind elo at a 38% winrate (which literally 99% of players have over), which means elo is more of an experience stat than a "skill" stat. Master players have to rely on winrate which they can only find out using the API which the keys are not handed out publicly.

Public API/Ret removal or rework from ranked/Elo rework should do the trick for ranked players. I would support more changes but those are the most important.

I'm in extreme agreement with a public API and an Elo rework, but the issue here is that these changes really only matter to the top 1% or so of the community. While I am normally all for changes targeting good players, I can't see your average Joe getting excited to boot up Town of Salem again to try out the new Ranked API. While the changes I suggested are ultimately aimed at making Ranked more tactically diverse, and I gave very little thought to other modes or how these changes might affect bad players, it is undeniable that these changes will have an impact on every single player playing this game, and those changes and new roles will provide people with a reason to come back and check out the game again now that Unity has launched. The concessions I'm making to prioritize growing the game's playerbase are tactical, and not pouring dev time into features like this is unfortunately one of them. I would, however, be all for these being done in time for the next season (provided we get back on track with having seasons that, you know, end).

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gorilla578 wrote:Alright before this thread gets derailed to hell.

I think that the Spy rework might be nuts by itself. If the Jailor outs himself on the first or second day (which they usually do), then you have have an obnoxious way to catch Mafia or confirm a lot of people.

N1: Jailor
N2: Orangeandblack (same)
N3: Gorilla578 (Different)
D4: Alright bois, Gorilla is NOT town, let's hang him!

The flipside of this is that at least I'm not being spoon fed but I'm still skeptical.

The whole point is basically that Parity Cop is on par in power with the Sheriff, but much less handholdey and better at finding the roles the Sheriff just can't. There is nothing Parity Cop can do that is broken compared to the Sheriff - your example is not significantly different from Sheriff getting Inno on N1 and N2 and then Suspcious on N3. Parity Cop is another slant on the same kind of investigations, and unless you're going to argue that Sheriff is broken I don't see any way this Spy could be.


gorilla578 wrote:Also, I think that Ret should be nerfed directly, whether of not it gets put into some Power category. If they won't nerf Ret, give us a Mafia Ret so Rets and their revived target can't be trusted as easily anymore.

This seems to me to be shortsighted thinking. Sure, adding a Mafia Retributionist would make Retributionists trusted less - but is that worth the opportunity cost of having a Mafia role whose job is to literally do nothing, because reviving a town player means that you've just brought a confirmed Town back from the dead and confirmed any Mediums in the game? No, much better to put Ret into Town Leader and then remove Town Leader from Ranked by virtue of having a confirmed Jailor.

gorilla578 wrote:Mafia Lookout is alright as long as I get to watch my own Mafia.

I don't think it needs that to be a great role, although I am certainly not against this.

gorilla578 wrote:I just want you to either concede or come up with a counterargument to my points already but I can tell you seem tired as hell since it's late due to the fact you're responses don't seem to make sense.

As described, I would argue it is your points that don't make sense. Getting a confirmed Town tested, then getting "Same", is basically the exact same as a Sheriff getting "Innocent" and then "Innocent" again. Getting a "Different" and then a "Same" to, in your words, "sweep the Mafia", is no different from getting a "Suspicious" twice in a row. The issue you see with this being some sort of broken, overpowered investigative powerhouse simply doesn't exist.

gorilla578 wrote:I'm not concerned about its ability to find Mafia too quickly, I'm concerned that Spies will simply sit on Day 1 Jailor reveals and confirm multiple people too easily especially since there is very little consequence of being outed as a Jailor.

Did you read the rest of the post or only the Spy rework?

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Flake wrote:someone that actually understands that parity cop would be a bad idea in this game because you can just cling to confirmable roles and become a significantly more scary sheriff.

Except Sheriff would get the exact same "Suspicious" so it's really not that much scarier.

Flake wrote:like the role would be fine if the main confirmability issues in this game were fixed. but if they're not going to be it's just not a good idea

Some of them are fixed by these changes. For example, claiming N1 and seeking protection is now much riskier due to the Trickster and Osservatore, so it's less likely to happen. Ergo, you'll see less confirmed town to start building a chain immediately on Night 1.

Flake wrote:that being said it'd still be significantly better than spy even then so. but there's definitely a better rework for spy than parity cop assuming confirmability issues will remain as they are.

I'm still all ears to any suggestions you have for a better Spy rework. You said this earlier but I haven't seen it.

Flake wrote:the main advantage parity cop has over sheriff is a lack of ambiguity when it comes to finding someone's alignment. i.e it has the ability to distinguish GF and neutrals as being suspect, something sheriff cannot do. this still holds here. normally the disadvantage parity cop has when compared to sheriff is the speed at which results start to bare weight, but in a game where confirmability is hilariously easy to achieve from multiple town roles, this disadvantage becomes far less prominent.

Godfather could be made to appear as Town and I would have no real issue with this.

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BS4125 wrote:Though I do think that the role is built around NB being in the game, which correct me if I’m wrong but it’s not seen in ranked anymore, so there isn’t enough cover from the comparisons with those who are confirmed which NBs would probably provide with claim space

On one hand, kind of yes. On the other hand, Neutral Benign claims were never good anyways, and if you didn't remember Town immediately you died the next day regardless.

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I'll get around to a few changes later on, thanks for your feedback thus far guys!
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:33 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Also, there’s a reason Witch got Consig powers in the first place: because not having them made it nigh-impossible to figure out what you’re doing before it’s too late and you’re either dead or have been found out. Witch doesn’t need a nerf (its win rate is low enough), and it definitely doesn’t need this.
I don't know where you seem to be pulling these win-rate statistics from (if there are official ones, I'd love to see them), but I'd rather have a role with a high skill cieling every time. If it needs a buff, it shouldn't be this. It was still the strongest NE before the consig results and the shield, and I'm sure it will be fine without the consig powers. If it's not, I'd rather buff it somewhere else than make it investigative. That particular power negatively affects things too much.
I don't have any exact numbers on win-rate, but it's generally accepted knowledge that town is OPAF, and evils' win rate sucks as a result. Since Witch can't win with town, it naturally follows that Witch's win rate would also be poor. Although that's not the main point of my argument. My main point is this:
MysticMismagius wrote:not having [Consig-powers] made it nigh-impossible to figure out what you’re doing before it’s too late and you’re either dead or have been found out.
Here's an example. Say you are a Witch, and you control Giles Corey into Sarah Good. The next day, Sarah Good is dead, having been stabbed by a Serial Killer. Is Giles the SK? You don't know. If you're ballsy, you could try to whisper Giles on D2 and find out, but half the time, he won't be and you've just fucked yourself. So you need to control Giles Corey for two or maybe even three nights before you're confident that he's the Serial Killer. That's wasted time that, with the Consig powers that Witch currently has, could go to controlling someone else or finding a Mafia ally in case trying to work with the Serial Killer doesn't work out. Back to the scenario: Once you know that Giles is the Serial Killer, you whisper him, etc., you then control someone else. You spend more time trying to figure out who they are, and now you have a game plan. Oh wait, it's already N6 and the game is basically over. You didn't do much of anything because you had nothing to go on: you were just controlling people and hoping it did something. With the Consig powers, you only need to control someone once to know whether they're a potential ally, a Townie that you can use as a tool, or a waste of your time. Without them, you could control them multiple times and still not know for sure. You have no real way to tell whether or not you're doing anything useful.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:20 pm

In general, I think you'll find someone who was controlled to visit the target of a Serial Killer is likely to be a Serial Killer if they do not claim they were controlled, and likely to be something else if they do.

You have more tools at your disposal than those your night action feeds you. Giving Witch consig powers completely takes away any need to use those and drastically shrinks the skill corridor of the role.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:34 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:In general, I think you'll find someone who was controlled to visit the target of a Serial Killer is likely to be a Serial Killer if they do not claim they were controlled, and likely to be something else if they do.

You have more tools at your disposal than those your night action feeds you. Giving Witch consig powers completely takes away any need to use those and drastically shrinks the skill corridor of the role.

Yeah, but it's also more room to completely screw up and cost you the game over something stupid like this. If the witch gives you results based on if they're siding with you or not, that would help. Not specifically role information?

Like Mafia/NK/Jester will show as against the town but any Town will show as with the town.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:53 am

Jailor now grants Basic Defense

Witch now gets Invincible Defense against scum on the night magic barrier procs

Shapeshifter now just straight replaces Executioner and has a new wincon for it

Flake is still gonna think it's Bastard the Role because it is but I'd rather have a functionally evil Exe/Jester replacement so BMG can get these roles in their current state out than deal with keeping them around just because any suitable replacement would also be bastard. Being bastard isn't inherently equivalently awful, it comes in degrees, and I think the upsides of the Shapeshifter on the game and its meta combined with the functional replacement of two roles that aren't working are worth introducing another role that is bastard.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:31 pm

'Twould work as well
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:12 pm

A Consort cannot kill at night until update 3.1

This is ToS 3.0
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:43 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:A Consort cannot kill at night until update 3.1

This is ToS 3.0
This raises an important question. Under a TMK model, RM roles would not turn into a Mafioso when the original Mafioso/GF dies, because there is no longer a point to it: any of them can choose to perform the factional night kill or use their RM abilities regardless of the presence of the current MK roles. But with this statement, you've made Consort different: they can't be the one who does the night kill. So what happens to Consort if they end up as the only member of the Mafia left?
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:59 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:A Consort cannot kill at night until update 3.1

This is ToS 3.0
This raises an important question. Under a TMK model, RM roles would not turn into a Mafioso when the original Mafioso/GF dies, because there is no longer a point to it: any of them can choose to perform the factional night kill or use their RM abilities regardless of the presence of the current MK roles. But with this statement, you've made Consort different: they can't be the one who does the night kill. So what happens to Consort if they end up as the only member of the Mafia left?

You will note that Tactical Mafia Kills are not a part of this suggestion.

Ergo, a Consort cannot kill.

I have not spoken whatsoever about a hypothetical Consort in a game with a TMK model, and so am confused as to why this is continuously brought up, when it is clearly unrelated to the suggestion at hand.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:54 pm

Because it's a complex system I note should be added, but would take too much time and too many changes to be worth doing right now.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:19 pm

Changed Werewolf rework to a slightly-tweaked version of Parallax's Butcher, as it's basically just objectively better than my proposal.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 3.0 (Exploring The Post-Unity Future)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:03 am

Just had a thought, it's a minor change but perhaps removing Jailor's ability to change targets after a lynch has occurred. So they can't switch depending on the lynch
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