Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

[Transcender]

Kyuss makes a good point; "who deserves it" isn't the only concern. Making sure there are no perverse incentives is possibly a bigger deal.

making the game more "realistic" doesnt really matter due to the game being
well
yeah

"No perverse incentives" is separate from realism.[/quote]
can you explain what you mean by that?

[MysticMismagius]

Kyuss makes a good point; "who deserves it" isn't the only concern. Making sure there are no perverse incentives is possibly a bigger deal.

making the game more "realistic" doesn't really matter due to the game being
well
yeah

"No perverse incentives" is separate from realism.

can you explain what you mean by that?

"Perverse incentives" seems to have more to do with situations that encourage all players involved to draw it out (because if they do anything else they hand the win to another faction) rather than anything to do with realism.

[Transcender]

Kyuss makes a good point; "who deserves it" isn't the only concern. Making sure there are no perverse incentives is possibly a bigger deal.

making the game more "realistic" doesn't really matter due to the game being
well
yeah

"No perverse incentives" is separate from realism.

can you explain what you mean by that?

"Perverse incentives" seems to have more to do with situations that encourage all players involved to draw it out (because if they do anything else they hand the win to another faction) rather than anything to do with realism.

how does it encourage players to draw it out? its exactly the same except gf is handed the win.

[MysticMismagius]

Read kyuss's examples again, I guess

I don't really know if they're right that it'll cause more problems than it solves, I'm just clarifying 'cause this "realism" thing kinda came out of nowhere

[Transcender]

Read kyuss's examples again, I guess

I don't really know if they're right that it'll cause more problems than it solves, I'm just clarifying 'cause this "realism" thing kinda came out of nowhere

I was just a bit stupid, thats all

[OreCreeper]

IMO the Coven Leader is so overpowered relative to the Godfather that this change wouldn't be enough.

In non-coven Ranked Practice, a witch can dominate either the Mafia or the Neutral Killing, forcing one of them to lose so that the other can win. In the same way, a Coven Leader in All Any can dominate either the Mafia or a Neutral Killing, ensuring that that faction has to rely on the support of the Town to have any chance of winning.

Actually... the Godfather is in the same position as the Serial Killer, relative to the Coven Leader. So let's compare the CL with the SK in the Coven Ranked Practice list. If the CL finds the SK, she can then dominate the SK each night, making it impossible for the SK to perform his regular function of killing whichever faction is ahead; instead, he becomes effectively a Town member with no night ability. The faction leader of a 4-member faction should not have this sort of power over the solo SK.

I've suggested a nerf for CL among other roles that prevents it from using its ability on the same target twice. This isn't a huge nerf to CL since there aren't many situations where the CL would need to control the same person twice other than fucking over NKs or mafia by repeatedly controlling them to prevent them from killing who they want.

[cob709]

IMO the Coven Leader is so overpowered relative to the Godfather that this change wouldn't be enough.

In non-coven Ranked Practice, a witch can dominate either the Mafia or the Neutral Killing, forcing one of them to lose so that the other can win. In the same way, a Coven Leader in All Any can dominate either the Mafia or a Neutral Killing, ensuring that that faction has to rely on the support of the Town to have any chance of winning.

Actually... the Godfather is in the same position as the Serial Killer, relative to the Coven Leader. So let's compare the CL with the SK in the Coven Ranked Practice list. If the CL finds the SK, she can then dominate the SK each night, making it impossible for the SK to perform his regular function of killing whichever faction is ahead; instead, he becomes effectively a Town member with no night ability. The faction leader of a 4-member faction should not have this sort of power over the solo SK.

I've suggested a nerf for CL among other roles that prevents it from using its ability on the same target twice. This isn't a huge nerf to CL since there aren't many situations where the CL would need to control the same person twice other than fucking over NKs or mafia by repeatedly controlling them to prevent them from killing who they want.

nice bump

[KAKERMAN23]

guys, orecreeper is necro, they bumped a thread nearly a year dead

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

guys, orecreeper is necro, they bumped a thread nearly a year dead

get em guys beat him up

[PleaseReadSiege]

Well, since someone else already bumped, how about it devs? Unity is here, and GF still deserves that stalemate win.

[cob709]

it should be a draw, not a win for either of them.

[PleaseReadSiege]

NO UNNECESSARY DRAWS. Coven vs Maf in Coven All Any is no contest for coven. If mafia makes it this far with GF still alive, they deserve it more than CL.

[cob709]

NO UNNECESSARY DRAWS. Coven vs Maf in Coven All Any is no contest for coven. If mafia makes it this far with GF still alive, they deserve it more than CL.

That's not how it works.

Did the Mafia meet its [LOSE CONDITION]? If no, then they cannot lose.
Did the Coven meet its [LOSE CONDITION]? If no, then they cannot lose.

Did the Mafia meet its [WIN CONDITION]? If no, then they cannot win.
Did the Coven meet its [WIN CONDITION]? if no, then they cannot win.

Are both factions incapable of meeting their [WIN/LOSE CONDITION]s? If yes, then they cannot win nor lose, thus is why it's called a "draw"

[Brilliand]

Are both factions incapable of meeting their [WIN/LOSE CONDITION]s? If yes, then they cannot win nor lose, thus is why it's called a "draw"

You're arguing against the entire "draw resolution" system now.

[JacksonVirgo]

Are both factions incapable of meeting their [WIN/LOSE CONDITION]s? If yes, then they cannot win nor lose, thus is why it's called a "draw"

You're arguing against the entire "draw resolution" system now.

I know what they're getting at but yeah, the draw resolution is there so that at least someone gets a win. If a solo evil (SK) gets into a 1v1 with a Godfather which had a janitor/consig and consort. Who do you think had the least likely chance but still pulled through? Give them the win

[JacksonVirgo]

For Mafia/CL, I am not sure entirely why the CL has priority. But the whole draw resolution thing is neat

[kyuss420]

I've suggested a nerf for CL among other roles that prevents it from using its ability on the same target twice. This isn't a huge nerf to CL since there aren't many situations where the CL would need to control the same person twice other than fucking over NKs or mafia by repeatedly controlling them to prevent them from killing who they want.

except in....idk.... maybe VIP mode????

what if the crusader is healed? CL cant control them away from the VIP the next night?

what if its VIP crusader or doc and its a crus vs crus situation? If CL cant repeatedly control the crusader at themselves, or repeatedly control the crusader away from the VIP, they may as well give up right then and there.

Reducing any attacking roles ability to choose whoever the fuck they want to attack, is dumb af. Maybe BMG should introduce ''sandbox mode'' where everyone is given a vest and its 12 town vs 2 evils, but the evils can only attack every 2nd night. Seems thats what most people in the suggestions thread want.

[kyuss420]

NO UNNECESSARY DRAWS. Coven vs Maf in Coven All Any is no contest for coven. If mafia makes it this far with GF still alive, they deserve it more than CL.

except to get into that 1v1 situation, other situations have to happen before hand. Most common of those situations is a 1v1v1 with a townie involved.

Ive already posted what would happen in those situations with escort/trans.

If it was any other townie, (or vamp, jester) except for a vet, CL would just keep controlling godfather to attack himself, and the 1v1v1 would draw out for 4 days, so that GF never gets a chance to win in the 1v1 stalemate. Town (or vamp, jester) would be gamethrowing if they voted either player during that time. CL would be gamethrowing if they voted the townie or made GF kill them during that time. The only player who can do anything to speed up the game is the CL, who can end it in 1 night.

So basically you are asking them to change a 1v1 stalemate win to a 1v1v1 draw.... or ask the faction that cant win in any situation, to play kingmaker and gamethrow to end it.

[KAKERMAN23]

i think we're missing something kinda important imo in this whole scenario, and that is that the cl vs gf scenario is only possible in coven all any (and coven custom ig), which is a chaos mode. that is all, continue

[Brilliand]

the cl vs gf scenario is only possible in coven all any (and coven custom ig), which is a chaos mode.

Doesn't matter. The stalemate detector responds to it for a reason, and it makes fine sense to discuss whether the stalemate detector handles it correctly.

Also, it's kinda weird to be trying to dismiss the single most-played Coven mode.

[PleaseReadSiege]

the cl vs gf scenario is only possible in coven all any (and coven custom ig), which is a chaos mode.

Doesn't matter. The stalemate detector responds to it for a reason, and it makes fine sense to discuss whether the stalemate detector handles it correctly.

Also, it's kinda weird to be trying to dismiss the single most-played Coven mode.

It's the only mode I play any more, so yeah, this stuff is still important to me.