NK Wincon Changes?

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NK Wincon Changes?

Postby 0verZealous » Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:40 am

I think we can all agree that NK is in a rough spot at the moment in Ranked. On the one hand, they are practically impossible to win reliably, causing many people to leave once they get them. On the other hand, NK as a 3rd faction that both the Town AND the Mafia need to deal with provides much-needed flavor in Ranked, and I don't think that simply removing them is the right way to go.

I would propose changing NK win conditions so that they can win EITHER by being the last faction standing OR killing a certain amount of people. Serial Killer and Arsonist would each need 5 kills to win, while Werewolf, with its lacking kill potential, could need just 4 kills instead.

Not only would this be a much-needed buff to NK's in terms of winning games, it would also be more thematic for the Neutral Killings to be rewarded for devastating the town even if they die in the end. This change also doesn't affect the OG NK wincon, so AA NK's will not be screwed over trying to get 5 kills in a town potentially full of killing evils. Of course, there is the potential problem of NK's going the route of Pirate, where they can side with town after getting their win condition to screw over the mafia. Then again, 5/4 kills would be much more devastating than 2, so maybe it's not a big deal? Overall, I think this change would make NK a lot more rewarding and fun to play. Feel free to give feedback!
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:17 pm

That would make the kingmaker problem much worse than it already is
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby leftcoastlawyer » Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:31 pm

For a lot, I'd say most of SK and Arso wins the NK kills less than 4 people... Best solution is to cap the elo loss for NK at -1 elo, I would say no elo loss but need to keep people from gamethrowing.
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby Stiersquid » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:59 am

Hear me out. Why not instead of changing nks for ranked, instead remove them from ranked and add new roles that would work in ranked?
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby WildCard65 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:54 pm

Stiersquid wrote:Hear me out. Why not instead of changing nks for ranked, instead remove them from ranked and add new roles that would work in ranked?


They already did try removing NK from Ranked, but the community demanded them back.
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby Stiersquid » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:08 am

WildCard65 wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:Hear me out. Why not instead of changing nks for ranked, instead remove them from ranked and add new roles that would work in ranked?


They already did try removing NK from Ranked, but the community demanded them back.

That's because there isn't another structured list outside of ranked to play nk.
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby Stiersquid » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:13 am

Actually something I didn't mention before but now that I think about it. No new roles ever replaced nks leaving. So that probably added to the problem.
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:52 pm

The NKs need to be balanced for Ranked, not for chaos. Arso shouldn't be able to kill 6 people N2 under any circumstance. And SK should be as basic as can be, just kill 1 person every night. The NK "buffs" that they made made SK and Arso far too chaotic and WW was already bad and still is bad. They should focus on making the NKs suitable for Ranked and making an Elo system where a difference of 400 Elo really creates a 90% winrate for the better team. Then put NK back in Ranked as a balanced role to prevent the game from ending D2 every time.
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby WildCard65 » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:52 am

alex1234321 wrote:The NKs need to be balanced for Ranked, not for chaos. Arso shouldn't be able to kill 6 people N2 under any circumstance. And SK should be as basic as can be, just kill 1 person every night. The NK "buffs" that they made made SK and Arso far too chaotic and WW was already bad and still is bad. They should focus on making the NKs suitable for Ranked and making an Elo system where a difference of 400 Elo really creates a 90% winrate for the better team. Then put NK back in Ranked as a balanced role to prevent the game from ending D2 every time.


The NK buffs were because the roles were weak, especially SK.
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Re: NK Wincon Changes?

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:06 am

WildCard65 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:The NKs need to be balanced for Ranked, not for chaos. Arso shouldn't be able to kill 6 people N2 under any circumstance. And SK should be as basic as can be, just kill 1 person every night. The NK "buffs" that they made made SK and Arso far too chaotic and WW was already bad and still is bad. They should focus on making the NKs suitable for Ranked and making an Elo system where a difference of 400 Elo really creates a 90% winrate for the better team. Then put NK back in Ranked as a balanced role to prevent the game from ending D2 every time.


The NK buffs were because the roles were weak, especially SK.

But giving them all chaotic swings in kill power wasn't the right way to go about it. SK was the strongest NK pre-buff, and just giving it cautious would have been fine and better than the new multi-kill will-bloodying roleblock interaction that probably nerfed the role indirectly. Maybe it could have also gotten some way to get around its weak attack power, and there would have been multiple ways to go about that.

Arso was the weakest NK before, but passive douses were a terrible idea. I would have liked some sort of single-use douse + ignite. Also Arso should have kept some of its counterplay like BG killing the Arso when it tries to douse someone. Wave's idea of a passive douse only if the Arso stays home is certainly much more reasonable than the current mechanic.

Werewolf was the least balanced NK before the buffs, and now maybe Arso is worse. The rampage will inherently have wild swings, but there are ways to get around it. My suggestion is that Werewolf should be able to rampage every night unless it killed 2 or more people the previous night. That would guarantee it 1 KPN, and it would be much harder to consistently boost its kill power far above that.

So yeah the NKs needed buffs, but the ones they got arguably made the roles worse in terms of balance.
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