rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.
They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)
Soulshade55r wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.
They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)
I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.
But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.
Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.
If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.
Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.
James2 wrote:The basic problem with Vampires is that they disunify the Town's win condition (making it so that each player has a separate wincon from the rest of the Town). The solution to this is simple, get rid of wincon conversion. Make it so that instead of a player's wincon changing, the Vampires simply gain the ability to control the actions and chat of the players that they have bitten. As part of this change, dead Vampires would lose the ability to see or speak in dead chat, while retaining the ability to communicate in the Vampire chat, and the ability to control converted townies. Also, since this would ultimately be a nerf to the Vampires, it would be balanced by taking away the VH's ability to read Vampire chat.
James2 wrote:James2 wrote:The basic problem with Vampires is that they disunify the Town's win condition (making it so that each player has a separate wincon from the rest of the Town). The solution to this is simple, get rid of wincon conversion. Make it so that instead of a player's wincon changing, the Vampires simply gain the ability to control the actions and chat of the players that they have bitten. As part of this change, dead Vampires would lose the ability to see or speak in dead chat, while retaining the ability to communicate in the Vampire chat, and the ability to control converted townies. Also, since this would ultimately be a nerf to the Vampires, it would be balanced by taking away the VH's ability to read Vampire chat.
alex1234321 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.
They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)
I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.
But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.
Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.
If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.
Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.
VH needs to exist to prevent town from completely gamethrowing every time a vamp shows up. Leave it conversion immune and don't make it unique but it should be forced whenever there are vampires. If it were unique then Town would just kill off the VH and then gamethrow.
Take away the night chat. That should be obvious. Other than that it's actually not a terribly unbalanced role like most people say. It prevents Vampires, an even worse role, from completely encouraging players to throw the game.
Soulshade55r wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.
They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)
I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.
But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.
Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.
If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.
Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.
VH needs to exist to prevent town from completely gamethrowing every time a vamp shows up. Leave it conversion immune and don't make it unique but it should be forced whenever there are vampires. If it were unique then Town would just kill off the VH and then gamethrow.
Take away the night chat. That should be obvious. Other than that it's actually not a terribly unbalanced role like most people say. It prevents Vampires, an even worse role, from completely encouraging players to throw the game.
I highly would put to question why vampire hunter shouldn't be unique? spawning vampire hunters randomly is unfair highly to the vampires so i hard disagree.
Having a counter role so powerful where vampires cannot kill the vampire hunter outside voting, when the role is easily confirmed is unfair, evils dont want to even kill vampire hunters because they do more good then harm, so it becomes a case of where vampires just prey that the vampire hunter(s) get killed randomly. They have no way to counter them.
That sort of dynamic is very unhealthy despite peoples shitting on unique mechanics such as conversions.
Vampires aren't even a bad concept the mixing in of normal modes and the way they currently work is awful, but conversion being a "flawed" concept doesn't mean it can't be a intresting and fun one in such a chaos mode.
Also preventing town from throwing should be what moderators do, town roles should always be encouraged to vote against vampires objectively while they are town, i find that it's the only "valid" point against conversions, where it becomes a bit harder to agree and disagree what throwing is, never the less I've always been against that "because some people will throw x is bad". Also I Guess free wins? are a thing but town can die n1 and get carried free wins are nothing new.
I would leave vampires/vampire hunters out of any and make Draculas' palace a actual role list (including allowing roles such as sheriff to function). I would rework spy anyway, I'd rework how vampires act bassically as converted goons, I'd work on the entire concept from the ground up.
Vampires get a bad wrap generally by the player base is because the design and execution is poor, not that conversion is terrible (ok in ranked and normal modes it is, but as a separate entity its FINE)
alex1234321 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.
They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)
I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.
But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.
Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.
If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.
Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.
VH needs to exist to prevent town from completely gamethrowing every time a vamp shows up. Leave it conversion immune and don't make it unique but it should be forced whenever there are vampires. If it were unique then Town would just kill off the VH and then gamethrow.
Take away the night chat. That should be obvious. Other than that it's actually not a terribly unbalanced role like most people say. It prevents Vampires, an even worse role, from completely encouraging players to throw the game.
I highly would put to question why vampire hunter shouldn't be unique? spawning vampire hunters randomly is unfair highly to the vampires so i hard disagree.
Having a counter role so powerful where vampires cannot kill the vampire hunter outside voting, when the role is easily confirmed is unfair, evils dont want to even kill vampire hunters because they do more good then harm, so it becomes a case of where vampires just prey that the vampire hunter(s) get killed randomly. They have no way to counter them.
That sort of dynamic is very unhealthy despite peoples shitting on unique mechanics such as conversions.
Vampires aren't even a bad concept the mixing in of normal modes and the way they currently work is awful, but conversion being a "flawed" concept doesn't mean it can't be a intresting and fun one in such a chaos mode.
Also preventing town from throwing should be what moderators do, town roles should always be encouraged to vote against vampires objectively while they are town, i find that it's the only "valid" point against conversions, where it becomes a bit harder to agree and disagree what throwing is, never the less I've always been against that "because some people will throw x is bad". Also I Guess free wins? are a thing but town can die n1 and get carried free wins are nothing new.
I would leave vampires/vampire hunters out of any and make Draculas' palace a actual role list (including allowing roles such as sheriff to function). I would rework spy anyway, I'd rework how vampires act bassically as converted goons, I'd work on the entire concept from the ground up.
Vampires get a bad wrap generally by the player base is because the design and execution is poor, not that conversion is terrible (ok in ranked and normal modes it is, but as a separate entity its FINE)
When I can be banned for trying to lose because I made a play that increased my own chance of winning then it's very much not fine. Even in a specially built mode there's nothing fine about a role where you want to play badly enough to win but not badly enough to get caught trying to win. See how confusing the whole thing is? Theirs been Situations where people have been banned for outing as evil, in a situation that would benefit them, In most cases town can't choose if they're converted so I'd question how players would try to increase that.
But if you absolutely must have vamps, you need someone who is conversion immune and cannot lose that immunity. If you can't guarantee it then at least add the threat of it. It's not a good mechanic but it somewhat limits the gamethrowing encouraged by Vampires. If VH was unique, then after the VH dies then everyone would be able to gamethrow and win together. If there might be another VH lurking around Town will think twice before doing that. Vampire Hunter should be conversion Immune in a sense but needs counter play, if the VH dies early lets say to maf? then what vampires easily win making vampire hunter a over powered counter to vampires isn't the way to go about it. I don't think ive seen majority town game throw so they can win with vampires? more like 1-2 town members ask to be converted into a free win. It just doesn't happen with the casual playerbase, I've said before i disagree that we should be only designing around rules, moderation exists for a reason, they could just enforce it aganist players outing and not trying because its a vampire game and the VH is dead.
Conversion, and especially hard conversion, is a terrible mechanic that should never have existed in the first place. VH slightly but significantly mitigates it. Making Vampires into soft conversion (give them the option to stay with their original faction in some capacity) would also reduce the problem. But it's still a problem. I can somewhat agree that conversion is a really bad thing in a lot of modes, why I want vampires separated from even any. I feel like instead of removing the entire concept you can just put vampires into a chaos game mode dedicated to people who actually want the vampire concept. While the players who hate vampires don't have to deal with them
I mean, people who hate Vampires are naturally going to not want to play a mode dedicated to Vampires, so idk why that's a surprise. I'd be happy with the existence of an isolated Vampire game mode, just so I can shove the role in a closet and never think about it again while I enjoy my Vampire-free All Any games. But it isn't a mode I would play myself.Soulshade55r wrote:The issue is people say vampires are "broken" but even if you gave them a isolated game mode (Dracula's palace is shit) people apparently would consider that a bad thing.
I don't think conversion itself is a bad mech, it needs counters, more ways to prevent it needs work but conversion isn't really broken
I agree conversion shouldn't be a random thing in a game mode, i rather players know that yeah theirs conversions in this mode before entering.
MysticMismagius wrote:I mean, people who hate Vampires are naturally going to not want to play a mode dedicated to Vampires, so idk why that's a surprise. I'd be happy with the existence of an isolated Vampire game mode, just so I can shove the role in a closet and never think about it again while I enjoy my Vampire-free All Any games. But it isn't a mode I would play myself.Soulshade55r wrote:The issue is people say vampires are "broken" but even if you gave them a isolated game mode (Dracula's palace is shit) people apparently would consider that a bad thing.
I don't think conversion itself is a bad mech, it needs counters, more ways to prevent it needs work but conversion isn't really broken
I agree conversion shouldn't be a random thing in a game mode, i rather players know that yeah theirs conversions in this mode before entering.
Soulshade55r wrote:Well its a surprise because if vampires were in their own mode with VH it wouldn't bother anyone. we can remove it from "any" I don't mind vampires, but i can agree it randomly spawning in ANY is dumb. espically if you didn't really sign up for a game mode that has conversions
kyuss420 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Well its a surprise because if vampires were in their own mode with VH it wouldn't bother anyone. we can remove it from "any" I don't mind vampires, but i can agree it randomly spawning in ANY is dumb. espically if you didn't really sign up for a game mode that has conversions
except there is a mode, Dracs Palace, which is pretty much dead, mostly due to the fact (IMO) that VH can read night chat, so its impossible to co-ordinate at night as vamps.
Having mayor spawn in that mode is also a pain in the ass, as its a power role that needs to be dealt with fairly early, but is outed as soon as theyre bitten, due to their voting going from 3 to 1, and people whispering them every day to check. Once town know mayor has been bitten, the youngest is revealed and town can lock them down with an escort for an easy win....
So basically in a mayor game, vamps have to deal with an unbeatable townie -the VH -that they have to gain majority to vote off, while having to deal with a townie that has 3 votes over them, which costs 3 nights and 1 conversion to get rid of...
Algus wrote:vampires ruin any game theyre in IMO so i'm 100% for limiting them (and vh obv) to draculas palace
they ruin all any games, they ruin games town would otherwise win (and as a result just end up punishing any dead town that wasnt lucky enough to get converted)
theyre bad IMO and they could absolutely use a ground up rework.
as for vh, i would not be against VH becoming NB but guaranteed (even unique), i would be against vampires being able to kill them outside of voting (which is the entire power of vampires imo)
again tho, just limit them to dracs palace and id be happy i dont really care outside of that
anytime i roll solo vamp in all any i just refuse to bite and claim vamp. doing everyone in the game a favor.
Vampire Hunter being Town or NB doesn't change how horrendously OP it is.Algus wrote:As for VH, i would not be against VH becoming NB but guaranteed (even unique), I would be against Vampires being able to kill them outside of voting (which is the entire power of Vampires imo)
MysticMismagius wrote:Understandable have a nice day
It's kinda hard to talk about VH when it's tied to Vampires which need their own entire rework
Especially since we don't know how a hypothetical Vampire rework would affect the balance of the role/faction
Algus wrote:vampires ruin any game theyre in IMO so i'm 100% for limiting them (and vh obv) to draculas palace
they ruin all any games, they ruin games town would otherwise win (and as a result just end up punishing any dead town that wasnt lucky enough to get converted)
theyre bad IMO and they could absolutely use a ground up rework.
as for vh, i would not be against VH becoming NB but guaranteed (even unique), i would be against vampires being able to kill them outside of voting (which is the entire power of vampires imo)
again tho, just limit them to dracs palace and id be happy i dont really care outside of that
anytime i roll solo vamp in all any i just refuse to bite and claim vamp. doing everyone in the game a favor.
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