Leaver Solution

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Leaver Solution

Postby Yemac » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:33 pm

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shapesifter13 wrote:We have a plan for a system to deal with leavers, and tried to implement it at one point, but ran into some issues and removed it for the current system till the one we want can be fixed up. With Unity and some other things that came up we haven't been able to fix up the leaver system quite as soon as we would have liked though.

The system would work as below:

You get a strike for every game you leave.

1-2 strikes - nothing happens. This is to account for the occasional DC, or emergency that people get in their daily lives. It happens.

3 strikes - 5 minute time out.

4 strikes - 30 minute time out

5-9 strikes - 1 hour time out

10 strikes+ - A permanent strike is added to your account. This would result in a suspension punishment based on your suspension strikes. 1 = 1 day suspension, 2 = 3 day, 3 = 7 day, 4 = permanent ban

Every 10 games you play you lose a leaver strike, and every week it would reset. This allows players that play a lot, to not get punished too harshly if they played 100 games, and left 5 of them, and punishes players that leave most of their games more harshly.

We also are working on a reconnect system to help with unintentional leaving issues.







Old idea
This has been pitched a million times, but I'll pitch it again.

If anyone leaves a game before the game has ended, then that person needs to wait until the game that they left is over.

This prevents mafia from leaving because they don't want to play mafia, they can't just hop into another game because they need to wait an x amount of time. Also vigi's who leave early after shooting town can't just hop out. They have to stay until the night so they can help town. Especially in gamemodes like TT and ranked practice there are so many leavers, and there is a 5 minute penalty, but that doesn't help much. it doesn't always show up, and for most people that's still better than playing a 15 minute mafia game.

I really see no downsides to this other than:
1. It might ask more of the servers (though, it's just checking if a game has ended, I think it won't put too much strain on it)
2. Abnormal disconnects happen through no fault of your own, but getting a small penalty for that isn't the end of the world. If you have those disconnects happen often, then you should get a penalty. A second counterargument is that the people who get an abnormal disconnection, are FAR less than the people who leave because they don't like their role. Yes, you might have to wait 15 minutes on occasion, I do too since I get them disconnects too, but it'll improve the quality of games so much more. It's just not fun to play when your mafia leaves, or when you're town and half the game is already over and the fun of finding mafia is gone because they left.

I'll gladly hear from the devs if this is an option they have thought about, and if they plan on implementing it. And what the community thinks of it
Last edited by Yemac on Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby OreCreeper » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:32 pm

Yemac wrote:This has been pitched a million times, but I'll pitch it again.

If anyone leaves a game before the game has ended, then that person needs to wait until the game that they left is over.

This prevents mafia from leaving because they don't want to play mafia, they can't just hop into another game because they need to wait an x amount of time. Also vigi's who leave early after shooting town can't just hop out. They have to stay until the night so they can help town. Especially in gamemodes like TT and ranked practice there are so many leavers, and there is a 5 minute penalty, but that doesn't help much. it doesn't always show up, and for most people that's still better than playing a 15 minute mafia game.

I really see no downsides to this other than:
1. It might ask more of the servers (though, it's just checking if a game has ended, I think it won't put too much strain on it)
2. Abnormal disconnects happen through no fault of your own, but getting a small penalty for that isn't the end of the world. If you have those disconnects happen often, then you should get a penalty. A second counterargument is that the people who get an abnormal disconnection, are FAR less than the people who leave because they don't like their role. Yes, you might have to wait 15 minutes on occasion, I do too since I get them disconnects too, but it'll improve the quality of games so much more. It's just not fun to play when your mafia leaves, or when you're town and half the game is already over and the fun of finding mafia is gone because they left.

I'll gladly hear from the devs if this is an option they have thought about, and if they plan on implementing it. And what the community thinks of it

I'd support this, but only if the elo penalties for leaving while alive in ranked were removed. It would be pretty unfair that if you get disconnected, you not only lose 30 elo but you also have to wait until the game is over before being able to play another game. Without the -30 elo thing though this would be a pretty good way to prevent people from intentionally leaving.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby shapesifter13 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:29 pm

We have a plan for a system to deal with leavers, and tried to implement it at one point, but ran into some issues and removed it for the current system till the one we want can be fixed up. With Unity and some other things that came up we haven't been able to fix up the leaver system quite as soon as we would have liked though.

The system would work as below:

You get a strike for every game you leave.

1-2 strikes - nothing happens. This is to account for the occasional DC, or emergency that people get in their daily lives. It happens.

3 strikes - 5 minute time out.

4 strikes - 30 minute time out

5-9 strikes - 1 hour time out

10 strikes+ - A permanent strike is added to your account. This would result in a suspension punishment based on your suspension strikes. 1 = 1 day suspension, 2 = 3 day, 3 = 7 day, 4 = permanent ban

Every 10 games you play you lose a leaver strike, and every week it would reset. This allows players that play a lot, to not get punished too harshly if they played 100 games, and left 5 of them, and punishes players that leave most of their games more harshly.

We also are working on a reconnect system to help with unintentional leaving issues.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby OreCreeper » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:43 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:We have a plan for a system to deal with leavers, and tried to implement it at one point, but ran into some issues and removed it for the current system till the one we want can be fixed up. With Unity and some other things that came up we haven't been able to fix up the leaver system quite as soon as we would have liked though.

The system would work as below:

You get a strike for every game you leave.

1-2 strikes - nothing happens. This is to account for the occasional DC, or emergency that people get in their daily lives. It happens.

3 strikes - 5 minute time out.

4 strikes - 30 minute time out

5-9 strikes - 1 hour time out

10 strikes+ - A permanent strike is added to your account. This would result in a suspension punishment based on your suspension strikes. 1 = 1 day suspension, 2 = 3 day, 3 = 7 day, 4 = permanent ban

Every 10 games you play you lose a leaver strike, and every week it would reset. This allows players that play a lot, to not get punished too harshly if they played 100 games, and left 5 of them, and punishes players that leave most of their games more harshly.

We also are working on a reconnect system to help with unintentional leaving issues.

Can you get suspended twice if you are on 9 leaver strikes and you get suspended mid-game?
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby shapesifter13 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:35 pm

I would imagine so. I haven't checked out that specific instance personally though.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby tipoima » Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:44 am

shapesifter13 wrote:10 strikes+ - A permanent strike is added to your account. This would result in a suspension punishment based on your suspension strikes. 1 = 1 day suspension, 2 = 3 day, 3 = 7 day, 4 = permanent ban


Does this mean you can potentially get two permanent strikes from 11 consecutive leaver strikes? Or does a permanent strike reset leaver strikes?
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby dolphina » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:46 pm

tipoima wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:10 strikes+ - A permanent strike is added to your account. This would result in a suspension punishment based on your suspension strikes. 1 = 1 day suspension, 2 = 3 day, 3 = 7 day, 4 = permanent ban


Does this mean you can potentially get two permanent strikes from 11 consecutive leaver strikes? Or does a permanent strike reset leaver strikes?

i’d suggest that a permanent strike resets leaver strikes but the threshold for a permanent strike is lower
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby shapesifter13 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:48 pm

Getting a permanent strike doesn't reset your strikes. If you get a permanent strike then you would be suspended giving you plenty of time to think about not leaving games anymore. If you still can't stop leaving games, then we believe you should not be playing.

If you have connection issues, even if they aren't your fault, then I would recommend trying to resolve them. I know some users have had connection issues since we launched unity, and we are working with those users to resolve those issues. This is part of the reason this system hasn't been implemented just yet. We are waiting until we are confident that Unity is stable for users, and we want to get the reconnect system in to try to help with any random internet drops as well.

If you regularly disconnect from games because you have poor internet, then maybe online games aren't for you. As sad as that may be, you affect every game that you leave, even if it is due to constant disconnects that you can't control.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:16 pm

Would reconnecting reconcile the penalty for DC'ing from that match, preventing the strike?
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Yemac » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:11 am

Reconnecting in theory sounds good, but how much time do you have to reconnect? You can very quickly run into issues of majority, gamethrowers who disconnect and reconnect, etc. Can you kill a disconnected person as mafia? They might just return just as the new day is about to start. A reconnecting system would bring more issues than it solves. What if a mafia member is jailed, about to be executed, quickly leaves and then comes back so jailor can't exe? Does jailor always have to execute? What about a town that leaves and jailor executes said leaver?

How many times can you reconnect? If feel like such a system is incredibly hard to both cheat-proof and and dumb-proof.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:40 pm

Yemac wrote:Reconnecting in theory sounds good, but how much time do you have to reconnect? You can very quickly run into issues of majority, gamethrowers who disconnect and reconnect, etc. Can you kill a disconnected person as mafia? They might just return just as the new day is about to start. A reconnecting system would bring more issues than it solves. What if a mafia member is jailed, about to be executed, quickly leaves and then comes back so jailor can't exe? Does jailor always have to execute? What about a town that leaves and jailor executes said leaver?

How many times can you reconnect? If feel like such a system is incredibly hard to both cheat-proof and and dumb-proof.


If reconect is added then the notification that someone dced should be removed/delayed so they dont get a full inmunity while they are afk
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby 123zane321 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:10 pm

Please tell me this only applies to people who leave games while alive - would be complete and utter horsecrap if it applied to people who left after they died.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby OreCreeper » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:12 pm

123zane321 wrote:Please tell me this only applies to people who leave games while alive - would be complete and utter horsecrap if it applied to people who left after they died.

Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.

Also, if a reconnect system was implemented, I think leavers should stay in the game as though they were afk, so they can be targeted and voted for.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby CapWarrior2 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:19 am

OreCreeper wrote:Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.


I thought in Ranked when you leave even while dead you got a penalty.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Yemac » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:38 am

OreCreeper wrote:
123zane321 wrote:Please tell me this only applies to people who leave games while alive - would be complete and utter horsecrap if it applied to people who left after they died.

Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.

Also, if a reconnect system was implemented, I think leavers should stay in the game as though they were afk, so they can be targeted and voted for.


For how long? Because sometimes it's better for an afk person to die, than just be afk. Say mafia killing leaves and is afk, causing mafia unable to kill someone. Or what about when it's a 2v1v1. With an afk town, another town, jester and mafioso. You need 3 votes. So if mafioso just kills the non-afk town, he wins. And if it's a 1v1v1, jester can force a vote on himself by saying "whoever doesn't vote me up gets hanged", but that doesn't work if a town is afk.

Yes, that towny can come back. But what if they don't? It would also be unfair if they don't count as a vote, because say it's a 2v2 between 2 town and 2 mafia and a mafia leaves. Then the town can just vote up the other mafia and hope the leaver doesn't come back.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Yemac » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:39 am

CapWarrior2 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.


I thought in Ranked when you leave even while dead you got a penalty.


No. If you're alive and leave, then you get -30 or -15 ELO based on how much ELO you have (-30 for non-masters) (-15 for masters).

If you leave while dead, you just don't get merit points, but you don't get a penalty.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:40 am

Yemac wrote:
CapWarrior2 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.


I thought in Ranked when you leave even while dead you got a penalty.


No. If you're alive and leave, then you get -30 or -15 ELO based on how much ELO you have (-30 for non-masters) (-15 for masters).

If you leave while dead, you just don't get merit points, but you don't get a penalty.


Actually you do, it counts you as a loss and you lose elo like if you had lost that game normally
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Cookazoo2 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:55 am

Yemac wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
123zane321 wrote:Please tell me this only applies to people who leave games while alive - would be complete and utter horsecrap if it applied to people who left after they died.

Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.

Also, if a reconnect system was implemented, I think leavers should stay in the game as though they were afk, so they can be targeted and voted for.


For how long? Because sometimes it's better for an afk person to die, than just be afk. Say mafia killing leaves and is afk, causing mafia unable to kill someone. Or what about when it's a 2v1v1. With an afk town, another town, jester and mafioso. You need 3 votes. So if mafioso just kills the non-afk town, he wins. And if it's a 1v1v1, jester can force a vote on himself by saying "whoever doesn't vote me up gets hanged", but that doesn't work if a town is afk.

Yes, that towny can come back. But what if they don't? It would also be unfair if they don't count as a vote, because say it's a 2v2 between 2 town and 2 mafia and a mafia leaves. Then the town can just vote up the other mafia and hope the leaver doesn't come back.


TMK fixes that problem.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Yemac » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:38 am

Cookazoo2 wrote:
Yemac wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
123zane321 wrote:Please tell me this only applies to people who leave games while alive - would be complete and utter horsecrap if it applied to people who left after they died.

Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.

Also, if a reconnect system was implemented, I think leavers should stay in the game as though they were afk, so they can be targeted and voted for.


For how long? Because sometimes it's better for an afk person to die, than just be afk. Say mafia killing leaves and is afk, causing mafia unable to kill someone. Or what about when it's a 2v1v1. With an afk town, another town, jester and mafioso. You need 3 votes. So if mafioso just kills the non-afk town, he wins. And if it's a 1v1v1, jester can force a vote on himself by saying "whoever doesn't vote me up gets hanged", but that doesn't work if a town is afk.

Yes, that towny can come back. But what if they don't? It would also be unfair if they don't count as a vote, because say it's a 2v2 between 2 town and 2 mafia and a mafia leaves. Then the town can just vote up the other mafia and hope the leaver doesn't come back.


TMK fixes that problem.


What's TMK?
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Cookazoo2 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:48 am

Yemac wrote:
Cookazoo2 wrote:
Yemac wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
123zane321 wrote:Please tell me this only applies to people who leave games while alive - would be complete and utter horsecrap if it applied to people who left after they died.

Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.

Also, if a reconnect system was implemented, I think leavers should stay in the game as though they were afk, so they can be targeted and voted for.


For how long? Because sometimes it's better for an afk person to die, than just be afk. Say mafia killing leaves and is afk, causing mafia unable to kill someone. Or what about when it's a 2v1v1. With an afk town, another town, jester and mafioso. You need 3 votes. So if mafioso just kills the non-afk town, he wins. And if it's a 1v1v1, jester can force a vote on himself by saying "whoever doesn't vote me up gets hanged", but that doesn't work if a town is afk.

Yes, that towny can come back. But what if they don't? It would also be unfair if they don't count as a vote, because say it's a 2v2 between 2 town and 2 mafia and a mafia leaves. Then the town can just vote up the other mafia and hope the leaver doesn't come back.


TMK fixes that problem.


What's TMK?


Tactical Mafia Kills, a system with a few proposed variations, but here's the gist (and my personal take on it):
• The Godfather may designate a kill at night.
• Any Mafia member may activate a coin ability to instead of using their night ability, instead do the factional kill. They may vote on the kill like a Mafioso would in present Salem.
• If multiple people volunteer, we give the kill to the Mafioso, but if they don't volunteer/aren't present, instead, whoever volunteered first will do the kill.
• If nobody volunteers, the Godfather does the deed.
• If there's no Godfather kill choice, whoever is given the kill will execute their hit.

This eliminates the need for a designated kill role, and also allows roles with no utility remaining (like Forger with no forges) to still serve the Mafia.

In addition, the Mafioso changes into a new role:

Code: Select all
MAFIOSO (MAFIA SUPPORT) || UNIQUE
BASIC attack, NO defense. (all mafia members technically have a basic attack now)
• The first time you visit, your visit is Astral.
• You may target a dead Mafia member to become their role.

note: mafioso will only have 1 shot of the selected role's ability, if it's an X-Shot.

Now, the Mafioso solves the problem of the Jailor meta, since you can simply Astral the Jailor and then either kill him or confirm there being a Doctor. However, the Mafioso can ALSO become a dead Mafia member and still be useful to the Mafia past the Astral, but if they visit the dead Mafia member before they do the factional kill, then that will waste their Astral, such that Mafioso becomes more of a power role late-game, once it has used the Astral visit.



This also solves the problem of "killing role is afk." Since ANYONE can do the kill, it doesn't matter if the Mafioso is AFK – since they're no longer the designated killer.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby 123zane321 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:46 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
123zane321 wrote:Please tell me this only applies to people who leave games while alive - would be complete and utter horsecrap if it applied to people who left after they died.

Of course it wouldn't affect people who have died, because leaving while dead has never been against the rules.

Also, if a reconnect system was implemented, I think leavers should stay in the game as though they were afk, so they can be targeted and voted for.

But would leavers count towards the number of people required to vote someone up? i.e. if 6 people left from a game with 15 people (9 people remaining), would there still need to be 8 votes to get someone up, or just 5? In either case, IMO it makes it easier for people to throw, so I just don't see this working long-term.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Kelisidina » Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:38 pm

I personally agree with what shape and the devs' idea- especially with the increasing time being locked from one account. The only problem is that I personally believe that the resetting time should be 1 month; people can essentially leave games while alive 9 times in a week and won't have to worry about a leaving strike.

Also a question to @shapesifter13,

Do you agree with the OP on this thread?

I think that's also a subchange you can make related to leavers.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby townofsalmonella » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:53 am

Kelisidina wrote:I personally agree with what shape and the devs' idea- especially with the increasing time being locked from one account. The only problem is that I personally believe that the resetting time should be 1 month; people can essentially leave games while alive 9 times in a week and won't have to worry about a leaving strike.

Also a question to @shapesifter13,

Do you agree with the OP on this thread?

I think that's also a subchange you can make related to leavers.


A week is still a pretty long time, likely long enough to deter most gamethrowers. Possibly a bump up to 2 weeks per reset would be good? A month is a bit too long.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:57 am

Yemac wrote:
If anyone leaves a game before the game has ended, then that person needs to wait until the game that they left is over.



Just to be clear, we're only talking about leaving while still alive right? Leaving once you've died is not against the rules, and doesn't need to be changed. You need to be able to leave and join a new game, especially when you know you've lost already.
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Re: Leaver Solution

Postby Yemac » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:19 am

PleaseReadSiege wrote:
Yemac wrote:
If anyone leaves a game before the game has ended, then that person needs to wait until the game that they left is over.



Just to be clear, we're only talking about leaving while still alive right? Leaving once you've died is not against the rules, and doesn't need to be changed. You need to be able to leave and join a new game, especially when you know you've lost already.


Of course. Leaving when dead shouldn't be an issue!
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