Patch 1.5.9 Planned Changes

[Buettel]

What will happen when a retributionist resurrects a disguised disguiser?

It's GG then.

He should not be able to select him, not that big of a deal. Sure he can reveal that the dead townie was Disguiser, but it should still not be too hard to find out.

I also like the laughs when a Disguiser dies to a Veteran on alert. "Toco has been killed by a Veteran. His role was Veteran."

[sunbird1002]

Ok, my opinions.

Transporter change: This makes the transporter confirmed, so it is now pretty powerful. Yes, it means that almost anyone can claim transporter now, but the transporter can still whisper while the deaths are being announced, so it is an easy to role to prove now. And no one can claim being fake transed, giving bad roles less space to move and claim.

Witch Change: Well, you have turned the witch into a consigliere who can control. This means that the witch now knows things he/she wouldn't otherwise know, like that she just controlled a game-changing investigator. As people said, it makes it too powerful.

3 trials per game: Don't have a real problem with this

Disguiser rework: I liked how disguiser used to work, and Mroz's change seemed great for this role. This change makes disguiser alright. Doesn't it? I'm not sure. It's first ability goes just against the investigator, nothing else. Now, with 4 investigative roles, and, in ranked, at most 4 investigative roles in a game, there is certainly a chance that an investigator is in the game, but not a exceedingly large chance. Now, its secondary ability, the death. Almost useless in all any, unless you are trying to put a sheriff in deep suspicion, or trying to claim big and be revived. But in ranked, if the Any is a mafia, it is pretty large, and can confuse a good amount of people. Even though, there are some places I am wondering on.

1) If a disguiser disguises as a jester, does the notification come? Or does it act like a disguiser has been hanged?
2) Can the disguiser disguise as a mafia member, to mess up the spy?
3) If the disguiser disguises as a town member, and then is shot by a vigilante, how would the vigilante react?

Not a bad change on the part of Disguiser, but other changes, as other people say, are not brilliant. For more in depth arguments against the Transporter and Witch changes, simply look at other posts

[sunbird1002]

What will happen when a retributionist resurrects a disguised disguiser?

It's GG then.

He should not be able to select him, not that big of a deal. Sure he can reveal that the dead townie was Disguiser, but it should still not be too hard to find out.

I also like the laughs when a Disguiser dies to a Veteran on alert. "Toco has been killed by a Veteran. His role was Veteran."

So what are you saying about the retributionist. Should he, or shouldn't he revive a disguised disguiser?

[sebastianelhefe]

I don't agree with the transporter change. It would make it so evil's can't falsely claim transported, and that their investigative results are wrong.

[Tugok]

How about to give this a try and then judge?

[Bangsgaard]

What will happen when a retributionist resurrects a disguised disguiser?

It's GG then.

He should not be able to select him, not that big of a deal. Sure he can reveal that the dead townie was Disguiser, but it should still not be too hard to find out.

I also like the laughs when a Disguiser dies to a Veteran on alert. "Toco has been killed by a Veteran. His role was Veteran."

Disagree. Retributionist needs a nerf anyways. Making revived people less confimed would be a small, but nice start.

[Nefarian666]

maybe the witch should be a neutral killing role now.

[maezm]

I'm totally against the Transporter change. It's one of the most powerful claims I use as scum (in the right circumstances) in order to help myself and my teammates early game until town loses numbers. And I'm not the only one using it. Ballsy and smart players are surviving a lot as evils with claiming that and encourages risky plays and good teamwork that are very rewarding if successfully pulled off. "This change is to help remove some of the extreme chaos the transporter creates without changing the way the role works." - please, do make this game even more oriented towards lazy and dumb players and people who lack communication skills. If TIs and Trans can't communicate with each other and get people mislynched, it's on them. You're just removing another roleclaim for evils and the game doesn't need that. So dissappointing.

[JazzMusicStops]

Not a fan of the Transporter change and would rather see the Witch get a one shot shield instead but the disguiser changes looks neat

[BlazinIce]

Disguiser: only hurts investigators. Invest hardcounter. I like the death part, but it's still weak. Maybe for spies, it shows who the person the disguiser targeted instead of the disguiser, and the lookout sees the person disguised visit himself. Also, make it so disguiser can visit other Mafia members.
Witch buff: it can easily be killed by scum and the buff won't help it.
Transporter change: now even more op. Roleblocked someone who was transported? Now you know who you really targeted! Same for investigative roles. Buffs town, but I don't mind because now its claimable. Actually, nvm. Imagine this in a game: "I'm gonna swap x and y, TP on me." Boom confirmed.
Trials: I like this, honestly. Needs to be just 2, though.

[Megalomancer]

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=29128&p=945577&hilit=disguiser#p945577

[BlazinIce]

Yeah that's what I mean

[StormSurge]

Any news on a witch faction????

[maezm]

Any news on a witch faction????

That's set for 1.6, not 1.5.9

[Seruth]

Disguiser:
It is ok, but make the following changes:
Disguiser can be resurrected by the Retributionist if disguised as town upon death.
Disguiser triggers Vig guilt if disguised as Town.

Witch: No idea, after all, there will be a witch faction soon... maybe needed for that? But still fragile.

Trials: 3 is ok.

Trans: NO. Confirmable if protected. D1: Protect me I am trans will trans 1 and 2.. Yeah. no. And no more claiming transed(if you are jester, you HAVE to do this sometimes).

[BlazinIce]

Spoiler: Disguiser:
It is ok, but make the following changes:
Disguiser can be resurrected by the Retributionist if disguised as town upon death.
Disguiser triggers Vig guilt if disguised as Town.

Witch: No idea, after all, there will be a witch faction soon... maybe needed for that? But still fragile.

Trials: 3 is ok.

Trans: NO. Confirmable if protected. D1: Protect me I am trans will trans 1 and 2.. Yeah. no. And no more claiming transed(if you are jester, you HAVE to do this sometimes).

Nah, you shouldn't be punished for shooting scum

[Seruth]

Spoiler: Disguiser:
It is ok, but make the following changes:
Disguiser can be resurrected by the Retributionist if disguised as town upon death.
Disguiser triggers Vig guilt if disguised as Town.

Witch: No idea, after all, there will be a witch faction soon... maybe needed for that? But still fragile.

Trials: 3 is ok.

Trans: NO. Confirmable if protected. D1: Protect me I am trans will trans 1 and 2.. Yeah. no. And no more claiming transed(if you are jester, you HAVE to do this sometimes).

Nah, you shouldn't be punished for shooting scum

Fair point, after all, vig is bad enough.

[TayonProductionsST]

Holy fucking shit BMG, stop catering the noobs

[randomguyhavingfun]

How about to give this a try and then judge?

how about we dont? if we were to realisticly give a try to every idea to judge it it would be a gg for the game.

[ksuc]

Disguiser (rework)
Probably the biggest and most important role balance change will be the Disguiser. The Disguiser role has had many problems ranging from last wills nullifying the roles usefulness to players using other names to break rules and make reporting more difficult and confusing. Thus we are completely reworking the role while keeping the theme of what the Disguiser is all about!

* The Disguiser will no longer take other players names, characters and positions
* The Disguiser can choose one player each night to Disguise as. If an Investigator checks the Disguiser that night the Investigator will see the results of the role the Disguiser selected.
* The Sheriff will still see the Disguiser as Mafia.
Example: Disguiser chooses to disguise as the player 1 who is the Sheriff. The Investigator will then see the investigative results of a Sheriff when checking the Disguiser that night.
* If the Disguiser is killed the night they disguise or lynched the following day, the role shown to the town (and on the graveyard list) will be the role of the player the Disguiser disguised as the previous night.
This is a pretty big meta change since the Disguiser will now have the ability to cast doubt on the graveyard list. It creates a new way for evil roles to deceive the town and adds a whole new layer of deception to the game!

I love this concept of Disguiser. Although I personally oppose "fake" graveyard reveal, but I think this will only harm one person that is being disguised, and further forcing the disguised person to prove the role (sharing will, etc) otherwise he/she will be lynched. Speaking of "fake" graveyard reveal, we've already much adapted with the Janitor cleaning graveyard list, and yet town still win. We just need to adapt to something new.

This change is not making Disguiser too OP: It's relatively easy to detect whether someone is lynched as Disguiser anyway. Disguiser can literally lying as anyone, therefore he must have a very good will to make towns believe he is a town mis-lynched.

There's only one thing I request. Because this rework is much more like a total overhaul to the role functionality instead of a revision/modification, I think the "Disguiser" should be retired and we should make this a new role name. The name is up to Devs: Burglar, Stealer, or anything else?

EDIT: Retributionist should not be able to revive the Disguiser.

Witch (buff)
The Witch will now see the role of the player they are controlling. This gives the Witch a lot more information to use their mind control powers more effectively as well as more role information to team up with evil roles or to trick the Town!

This is too OP. Much more like "Consig" but outside of mafia, plus the existing power. If this happens, then Invest results should be modified: Invest/Consig/Witch and Surv/VH/Mayor.

Transporter (change)
When a Transporter swaps two targets it will display who was swapped to everyone in the town. This change is to help remove some of the extreme chaos the transporter creates without changing the way the role works.

I don't mind with this, because Transporter is already much easily confirmed. While this remove the extreme chaos, this would also help Consort or other evils to acting as transporter. ;D Perhaps just test this change and we'll see what will happen next.

EDIT: Reading a lot of negative opposing comments, I am sticking to "just test this change and we'll see what will happen next".

Limiting Trials Per Day to 3
Some players have been using multiple trials per day to extend day time phases longer than intended. This change will also prevent Mayors from being able to infinitely prolong games.

About time!

[Skurd]

I think some changes are okay to try out. But some should maybe be adjusted a little bit

Instead of witch getting exact role. Maybe she should get the same results as an investigator. Would make her stronger, yet not too strong.

Transporter fun is ruined a lot by this. As well is keeping targets alive. This is because if you sometimes find a town worth saving, you would be trying to swap this with a mafia over and over again. Meaning that mafia knows for how long they need to avoid hitting this target. But maybe this is a needed nerf. It also boost Arsonist who can also hide between him being Transporter(even though transporter can pm to reveal himself right away). Maybe a change that could be done is that the first target he selects is visible to town and not the 2nd one. Making so that it is still confusion within the game. I think this would be better than revealing both.

Disguiser change is a nasty one for ranked if there is Any role still in it. Because you will never know for the entire game how many mafia is alive. I think he should not appear as a town role when he dies.
Maybe a change could be that upon death his role is like if a Janitor visited him at night making him ???. And then making a change to Janitor making targets ??? if they die during the next day. Which then makes Janitor more interesting?

If disguiser still dies as a townie. He should be recognized as a mafia to a medium and to ret making him unable to revive him. Also a Vigi killing him should not make him die to guilt. If disguiser is selected as jester, the message should not appear as he will choose a target. Or if the message appear, do not give Disguiser the chance to kill someone. Which then could make Jester more fun to play, which since you as a jester can choose not to kill someone to confuse whole town about you being a possible disguiser.


Overall this change sucks alot for investigator. A witch can claim your role, a disguiser can screw up your will, you have no chance to differenciate trans and arso.

[RosalinasGalaxy]

Disguiser (rework)
Probably the biggest and most important role balance change will be the Disguiser. The Disguiser role has had many problems ranging from last wills nullifying the roles usefulness to players using other names to break rules and make reporting more difficult and confusing. Thus we are completely reworking the role while keeping the theme of what the Disguiser is all about!

* The Disguiser will no longer take other players names, characters and positions
* The Disguiser can choose one player each night to Disguise as. If an Investigator checks the Disguiser that night the Investigator will see the results of the role the Disguiser selected.
* The Sheriff will still see the Disguiser as Mafia.
Example: Disguiser chooses to disguise as the player 1 who is the Sheriff. The Investigator will then see the investigative results of a Sheriff when checking the Disguiser that night.
* If the Disguiser is killed the night they disguise or lynched the following day, the role shown to the town (and on the graveyard list) will be the role of the player the Disguiser disguised as the previous night.
This is a pretty big meta change since the Disguiser will now have the ability to cast doubt on the graveyard list. It creates a new way for evil roles to deceive the town and adds a whole new layer of deception to the game!

I love this concept of Disguiser. Although I personally oppose "fake" graveyard reveal, but I think this will only harm one person that is being disguised, and further forcing the disguised person to prove the role (sharing will, etc) otherwise he/she will be lynched. Speaking of "fake" graveyard reveal, we've already much adapted with the Janitor cleaning graveyard list, and yet town still win. We just need to adapt to something new.

This change is not making Disguiser too OP: It's relatively easy to detect whether someone is lynched as Disguiser anyway. Disguiser can literally lying as anyone, therefore he must have a very good will to make towns believe he is a town mis-lynched.

There's only one thing I request. Because this rework is much more like a total overhaul to the role functionality instead of a revision/modification, I think the "Disguiser" should be retired and we should make this a new role name. The name is up to Devs: Burglar, Stealer, or anything else?

EDIT: Retributionist should not be able to revive the Disguiser.

Witch (buff)
The Witch will now see the role of the player they are controlling. This gives the Witch a lot more information to use their mind control powers more effectively as well as more role information to team up with evil roles or to trick the Town!

This is too OP. Much more like "Consig" but outside of mafia, plus the existing power. If this happens, then Invest results should be modified: Invest/Consig/Witch and Surv/VH/Mayor.

Transporter (change)
When a Transporter swaps two targets it will display who was swapped to everyone in the town. This change is to help remove some of the extreme chaos the transporter creates without changing the way the role works.

I don't mind with this, because Transporter is already much easily confirmed. While this remove the extreme chaos, this would also help Consort or other evils to acting as transporter. ;D Perhaps just test this change and we'll see what will happen next.

EDIT: Reading a lot of negative opposing comments, I am sticking to "just test this change and we'll see what will happen next".

Limiting Trials Per Day to 3
Some players have been using multiple trials per day to extend day time phases longer than intended. This change will also prevent Mayors from being able to infinitely prolong games.

About time!

The witch buff is not overpowered.
The witch currently lacks any way of gaining information on who they're controlling. They are the weakest Neutral Evil role, and this buff will definitely help give the witch more use on the usage of her control powers.

The transporter change shouldn't be implemented at all, because it only buffs the Transporter. A role that is still one of the most powerful town roles. This change will only help confirm the presence of a transporter/multiple transporters to everyone, and no one can fake claim being transported anymore.



But none the less, the original post still says "Subject to change at any point."
Hopefully they are taking our criticism into consideration, and adjusting the roles at will.

[RosalinasGalaxy]

The transporter....just...got mega buffed?
This not only helps confirm the presence of a transporter to everyone in town, but now no one can fake being transported ever again. Which means, a good excuse to avoid being prosecuted for an investigative result, has now been even more restricted.
While it does clarify the confusion, it also just made the transporter even more powerful. I thought we were trying to nerf the transporter? So why did you guys believe it was a good idea to buff the transporter even more?

This is not a buff. First off, if town gets transported, they should call out that they were transported, meaning that your point of "This not only helps confirm the presence of a transporter to everyone in town" is moot. Additionally, your point of "now no one can fake being transported ever again" is also moot, as the transporter would know that they are lying. A living transporter would call out the lie, and the transporter's will would make the lie obvious.

Actually. It is a buff.
They just made the transporter easier to play as. And it confirms the presence of a single transporter or multiple transporters. While it does clarify confusion, it also makes the game too easy for a transporter, because now you don't even have to speak. You don't have to keep a will. You don't have to do anything really. Your transports are revealed everyday, so now town investigative roles will know who they really visited.

My point of no one being able to fake being transported again, is not "moot" in any sense of the manner. That's a really big issue. A transporter usually doesn't speak up when people claim they were transported, mainly because of the assumption of "Oh maybe there's another transporter besides myself".
So no. It really doesn't do any good for the evils. It just makes things easier for the town to figure out. And we don't want that.

[xAltaria]

About the Disguiser, since the Disg doesn't know the role of the player they disguised as, people will now begin to ask for role before stating their investigative results.
Because of this, the Disg can no longer claim "Doctor" because their invest results will change and they have no idea what the results of the person they disguised as.
Here's an example.

Investigator: Role?
Disguiser: Doctor OR Doesn't Answer OR Random Claim Sucess/Fail
If Doctor, Investigator: You came up as Sher, Exe, WW. HANGED.
If Doesn't, Investigator: Hang them they're Disg. HANGED.
If Random Claim Fail, Investigator: You came up as Sher, Exe, WW. HANGED.
If Random Claim Success, Investigator: K. SAFE.

The example shows that out of 4 possibilities, 3 of them will get the Disg hanged. Not to mention the one that lets the Disg survive has a very low chance to occur.
I can't identify any ways to fix this aside from allowing the Disg to know Invest Results, but that would be WAY to overpowered if they Disguise as someone such as a Spy, BMer, Jailor.

One last thing, I know that the actual chances of the example occurring is very slim. Most Invest hide their results, and unless they find someone such as BG, GF, Arso, they won't ask for the person's role. But this does not mean that the example can't happen.

That's all I'd like to say, if you have any comments to this feel free to reply.

[YamiChan]

How about, if you try and control someone who is not a visiting role, jailed, RBed, or a Trans, or whatever, you get a message telling you that "It had no effect"? Being told if the person you tried to control is a visiting role or not still seems a little too specific, as how would you even know that? This way, you know that your attempt to control them failed, but not exactly why.

I thought that the Disguiser was just copying another person's role for Invest results.

Seems like no one noticed my Witch suggestion.

And not too sure how to feel about the Disguiser being able to appear as another role when they die.

I disagree that these changes make the Trans easier to play as. Part of the reason I hate them is because they expose who the Trans switched, which should be a secret and gives away too much.