Introducing the Vampire and Vampire Hunter!

[WindKyubi]

Hi, I'm pretty sure that i read somewhere you guys weren't sure if to make Vampires or Hunters unique so why not a semi unique? its something new to the game and a complete game changer how about a maximum of 4/6 vamps and 1/2 hunters? kind of like the max of 6 mafia if theres not Amnesiac, sorry i haven't read all the pages on this and apologies if im just reposting what someone else has said. this would take care of how OP it is and not be so broken

[Iceman001]

2.) Town will probably be smart enough to put lookouts on people who beg to be converted
3.) Vampire Hunter will probably also visit people who beg to be converted and kill any visiting vampires

2. Unless the lookouts want to win with the vampires so once they find out who the vampire is they might whisper to them asking to be converted.
3. That's not how Vampire Hunters work, they either have to visit a vampire or the vampire has to visit them in order for them to kill the vampires. So if a Vampire Hunter targets Player A (a confirmed townie) and the Vampires convert Player A the same night the Vampire Hunter will not kill the visiting Vampire. Most likely the transformation will take place the next morning similar to an amnesiac remembering their role and becoming the new role the next morning so the Vampire Hunter won't kill the target being converted yet as the transformation hasn't completed.

[strategyzrox]

99% chance of winning

Well, let's run some numbers, shall we?

I'm going to do a Standard game, exept we remove Jester AND medium to Vampires.

Next, we do some math.

13 classes can be converted via vampire on N1. Subtract all night immunities, 3 mafia, 1EXE, and the SK, and that leaves about 61% chance of getting a new vampire freind.

Next, let's go over other ways the vampire can fail:

Doctor: 0.004% chance on N1 of failure
Escort: 0.004%
Jailor: 0.004%

ANd these are SEPRATE, put all 3 of them into the equasion, and you got less then a 50% chance of hitting when you add the imuune people. AAAAAAAND the Random town and random killig roles. There is no way the Vampire is OP

don't forget the possibility of hitting the VH, which not only blocks the vamp from turning, but also kills the vamp trying to bite.

[dDShockTrooper]

I think the real question is when can we see this on the Public Test Realm? Any conjecture about the balance of the vampires is fairly useless until we can actually see them in action.

[strategyzrox]

A couple questions.

If the youngest vampire bites an immune

1. is it no longer possible to make new vamps because the bite is used or can they go again the next night?

I believe they can try again in the night immediately following. The original post says that they have to wait a day IF a vampire is successfully turned.

2. Can Vampires only bite full moons, or just every other night regardless?

I think it is every other night, regardless of full moons. In fact, If they successfully convert every night they can bite, they will ONLY convert on non-full moon nights.
fitting for a darkness loving creature whose mortal enemy is the werewolf.

If youngest Vampire dies:

1. Can the 2nd youngest bite again or is it not possible to make new vamps?

I would think so. Vampires are nerfed enough already without having their core mechanic hinging around one player.

And finally... do dead vampires win with living ones?

Apparently, vampires win as a team.

[strategyzrox]

Alright, so this is my first post on the forums and I'm mostly posting because after reading through all the comments I haven't seen this topic addressed topic being: With a cap in general (let alone one as low as 3) and no alternative ways to kill other than lynching (my biggest concern being the mafia), also given the likelihood of hitting a bite immune it feels like it will be extremely difficult for the vampires to win, I feel that if a cap is implemented then the vampire attack should become a kill when they are at that max. Let me know what you guys think just the things that occurred to me while reading through, either way looking forward to see how these new roles effect the gameplay.

not a bad idea, to have vampires kill when they hit their max.

Someone else also suggested vampires would kill, rather then convert, mafia members. I think this is a good idea, as it gives vampires some recourse against one of their enemies.

[cmitc1]

what is ToS becoming...................... just wow.

[Metazoxan]

Regarding the vampire, I personally don't think that it will be so overpowered that you shouldn't introduce it into ranked.
Ways to balance the Vampire Hunter:
Spoiler: -Make Vampire Hunter a TS (allows for TK to still exist since VH cannot kill mafia)

-Make VH night immune until all vampires are killed, once all vampires are killed "You have slain the last bloodsucker, you let down your guard."

-Make VH a non-unique role (amnesiacs can become a Vampire Hunter)
Ways to balance the Vampire:
Spoiler: -To remove the issue on townies becoming the minority D2, make vampires wait one night (Alike Vigilantes having to wait)

-Investigators should be able to tell with precision if someone is a vampire. (this I would find to be a last case scenario to nerf the vampire)
"Your target owns a coffin, they are a Vampire!"

-Make a announcement as to which role was transformed, "A town investigative role has been transformed into a vampire" akin to the announcement of Amnesiacs (this is more for ranked and so that people are still suspicious of roles like Mayor turning into a vampire)

-Like all other NE's make it so that if they are killed/lynched (exception being Jester lynch) they do not win even if vampires still win. (reduces gamethrowing)

-Limit to three vampires if people complain too much.

-If all else fails, make it so that there can only be two vampires at one time. (easier to hunt down and doesn't completely gamebreak)

-Make vampire a unique role
Personally, I like the idea of announcing which role (TS,TI,Jailor,TP) has become a vampire, allowing vampire to be more viable in ranked gameplay.

Although, a lot of people are ignoring the fact that Vampires are not night immune and panicking thinking that they are unkillable.
P.S. Vampires on N1 or N2 biting have a 1/14 chance of hitting Vampire Hunter, 3/14 chance of immune mafia, 1/14 chance of nk, 1/14 chance of any target being jailed, 1/14 chance of any target being healed/protected.

IMO: Vampires are not as overpowered as a lot of people are claiming, and I wouldn't mind seeing them in ranked. (if the VH is turned into a TS role or given night immunity until all vampires are extinct)

I agree vampires aren't OP but your solutions would make them far under powered. Vampires can already only turn every other night. HOW would they get majority D2? Also invests know when exactly and everyone knows exactly what roles are turned? That is the worst idea ever! They already can't turn people very quickly and now you want them easy to find and want eveyone to basically know who was turned? Also they are a faction so they should win as long as their faction wins and how would this prevent gametrhowing.

Also I don't mind putting a cap on them but 3 is a bit small. They won't be able to fight off a standard mafia team late game with that size. In an ideal senario where vampires manage to get things in their favor they should be able to win late game by majority vote especially against the mafia that they can't turn. That means at least 4 to 6 as the cap limit which is 100% fair since mafia can have up to 6 members in a game given the current cap. But that is assuming there even is a cap and the front page still hasn't reflected such.

Remember even without a cap vampires can ONLY turn every other night and none of them are night immune. So the chances of them getting super high numbers is pretty damn low especially if a VH is in the game. So IMO a cap isn't even needed as long as the other players aren't complete idiots.

[DreamJinx]

I agree vampires aren't OP but your solutions would make them far under powered. Vampires can already only turn every other night. HOW would they get majority D2? Also invests know when exactly and everyone knows exactly what roles are turned? That is the worst idea ever! They already can't turn people very quickly and now you want them easy to find and want eveyone to basically know who was turned? Also they are a faction so they should win as long as their faction wins and how would this prevent gametrhowing.

Also I don't mind putting a cap on them but 3 is a bit small. They won't be able to fight off a standard mafia team late game with that size. In an ideal senario where vampires manage to get things in their favor they should be able to win late game by majority vote especially against the mafia that they can't turn. That means at least 4 to 6 as the cap limit which is 100% fair since mafia can have up to 6 members in a game given the current cap. But that is assuming there even is a cap and the front page still hasn't reflected such.

Remember even without a cap vampires can ONLY turn every other night and none of them are night immune. So the chances of them getting super high numbers is pretty damn low especially if a VH is in the game. So IMO a cap isn't even needed as long as the other players aren't complete idiots.

Very true, but the issue on gamethrowing is another thing since they can convert, a lot of those solutions I put in there as a last case scenario. Personally I don't think they should all win as a faction if they die, because that might insure that people would vote against mafia and then change into vampires (voting against mafia isn't against their goal, but there will be some cases where people will vote to win as vampires). Some of the earlier posts in this forum had spoken about how the uninformed majority would lose votes since vampires could easily convert; personally the only thing that I want out of my solutions was to have it announce which category person was changed. I personally don't think that vampires are the underpowered role that is being released, I believe that vampire hunter is going to make mafia wins considerably easier, since he cannot kill mafia, and can be killed by them. Thank you for the feedback.

[BlazeCaravelli]

This is going to be interesting.

[murat1996]

This is going to be interesting.

Or possibly a downer.

[Konekoa97]

Let me get this straight,

So if only the youngest Vampire visits to bite the person, this is how I see this going.
The youngest vampire visits the VH and dies, therefore the other vamps already know who the VH hunter is, and can do everything they can to avoid them, and then lynch them the next day by the town, much how the mafia can get rid of night-immune roles.

Or am I wrong here?

[dDShockTrooper]

Let me get this straight,

So if only the youngest Vampire visits to bite the person, this is how I see this going.
The youngest vampire visits the VH and dies, therefore the other vamps already know who the VH hunter is, and can do everything they can to avoid them, and then lynch them the next day by the town, much how the mafia can get rid of night-immune roles.

Or am I wrong here?

I'd imagine that the VH kill is written as "Staked by a Vampire Hunter" or similar regardless of whether the VH was visited by a vampire, or the VH visited the vampire. So then it would be possible that the vampire simply hit someone who is immune to turning and just happened to get staked by the VH on the same night due to the VH visiting them. So the target is not necessarily the VH. Though yes, the vampires will still avoid them, as with any situation where a target does not become a vampire, as there is no point trying again. Trying to lynch them might be a little awkward if it doesn't turn out how you expected though.

[CrazyPerson629]

Let me get this straight,

So if only the youngest Vampire visits to bite the person, this is how I see this going.
The youngest vampire visits the VH and dies, therefore the other vamps already know who the VH hunter is, and can do everything they can to avoid them, and then lynch them the next day by the town, much how the mafia can get rid of night-immune roles.

Or am I wrong here?

Getting the VH lynched would be a high goal for the vamps... but it comes with some risks.

VH is going to be the lowest priority target for mafia, sk, ww, and arsos... those factions all benefit from dead vampires, yet can't be hurt by the ability best at killing them. If a consig has figured it out... or others have somehow figured out that it is a strong possibility it won't be the best strategic option.

Once town does lynch a vh, there is suddenly a lot of suspicion on whoever put them up... likely resulting in a vampire lynched the next day.

[TTay21]

So, like, if jailed can the vampire bite the jailor?

Also, if the person turns into a vampire, do they join the vampire faction? If so, do they still get a "win" if the vampire faction wins after they turn them?

[RhazhBash]

Here's a few arguments against these two roles.

Vampire:

Again, I'm not saying I don't want this role added, I just don't want it in ranked. The only argument that I've seen supporting them in ranked is that Town wins too much and they will bring down their win rate. The big problem with this argument is that it doesn't account for bring the already low win rates of Mafia and NKs down even further, since they can't win with Vampires. The big goal of making Town weaker is to equalize all faction win rates to an extent. Mafia and NKs having a lower win rate is to be expected, but not at the extreme levels it's at now. Beyond this I've yet to see any arguments to why they belong in ranked (If I missed it point it out). Vampires could be fun in chaos, but they just don't seem to have a place in ranked. Again though, I'm willing to give it a shot, but I'd rather Vampire not be added to ranked the moment it gets released, and instead it be tested in other game modes first.

Vampire Hunter:

Honestly I just don't see the point of this role. It's a combination of a Vigilante and Veteran that only works against Vampires. Why would anyone want a Vampire Hunter over a regular Town Killing, and why would anyone want to be a VH instead of a regular Town Killing? Everyone argued against not having one role that does nothing but counter another role, so Achilles discussed giving the VH one bullet with Vig rules after all the Vampires die, but even then a Vigilante would probably be more useful to Town than a Vampire Hunter. The Vigilante's benefit of being able to kill any non immune scum outweighs the Vampire Hunter's conversion immunity and unlimited shots imo.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'm willing to give the roles a shot, but I don't want them in ranked the moment they come out. First of all, I'll propose a ranked role list and alignment change to compensate for the new roles, and discuss better ways to lower Town's win rate.

Vampire is added to a Neutral Terror/Chaos alignment, and Vampire Hunter can only spawn from Town Killings if a Vampire is in the game. Vampire Hunter does not have to exist if a Vampire is in play. The original Vampire and Vampire Hunter are unique.

Updated ranked role list

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia/Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil/Random Neutral that cannot spawn Killings or Terror
Neutral Killing

Benefits of this role list over the current ranked list.

+An extra Mafia member to strengthen the team
+Plenty of Random Towns for scum to claim
+Focuses more on the informed minority vs uninformed majority concept without Neutrals clogging up the game
+Removal of the Any

-Neutral Killing only has one potential ally, but played well can dodge Town Investigatives and fake claim when needed


Adding a role list like that easily helps scum, because at this point in the game Town's strongest tactic is process of elimination. Town's other greatest weapon is the ability to easily confirm themselves. Take away the confirmability of Spy, Transporter, Vigilante, and Veteran and you make the game more based on reads and Town Investigatives over confirming people immediately and narrowing down suspects from there. Before you say Vampires can stop confirmed Town from being confirmed for more than one day, that's what the purpose of Disguiser was, but that ended up being a horribly designed role that can't fulfill the intended purpose. It would be easier to balance Town around the game than to balance the game around Vampires, because Vampires don't seem like a very adaptable role.

[mshuck89]

I'm not 100% sure if the way it's been suggested is a good idea, but here's my two cents.

Vampire Hunter:
A person dedicated to the eradication of the eldritch.
This person smells of tainted blood. They could be a Werewolf, Vampire, or Hunter. (Investigated)
This person smells of tainted blood. They are a Hunter. (Cons'ed)
Win Condition: Survive to see all Werewolves and Vampires eliminated.
-If all WW or Vampires are eliminated, gain two vests (Night immunity for two nights)
-Visiting the target of a WW or Vamp negates their attack(s) and kills them.

Vampire: A human turned undead, seeks to convert all human life.
This person smells of tainted blood. They could be a Werewolf, Vampire, or Hunter. (Investigated)
This person smells of tainted blood. They are a vampire (Cons'ed)
Win Condition: Survive to be the oldest vampire. (The last vampire to be converted will lose, or all but the oldest surviving Vampire will lose, depending on what they choose.)

the invest cannot see the VH and vamp as the same because the town would have no option other than assume he is VH for safety (assuming town wants to win as town)
personally I would hope the invest gets to plainly see vampire as vampire, if the town gets lucky and day 2 the invest found the original vamp and the VH already self proclaimed, easy whisper boom dead vampire

keep in mind VH is likely to self reveal day 1 because
1) town wants info asap
2) maf won't kill him since he is effectively moreso on their side than town (since he is the one townie who can't be converted..and the maf can't be converted so if maf wants to win letting him roam around the town is safe)

but a problem that hasn't been addressed in quite a few pages (up to the quote)..the graveyard for the sake of town knowledge I would hope the dead show up as "lookout/vampire" as opposed to just "vampire" or lookout so the town/VH have a general way to tell whats left and estimate vampire count (you know at day 2 if VH stays VH and there is a dead vampire then he converted someone) vs not having the information means the uninformed majority has less and less information..effectively treating vampires as janitors as well since they would be smart to delete their will but keep it on copy/paste incase asked for it)

[strategyzrox]

So, like, if jailed can the vampire bite the jailor?

no. if the youngest vampire is role blocked, there will be no conversions that night.

Also, if the person turns into a vampire, do they join the vampire faction? If so, do they still get a "win" if the vampire faction wins after they turn them?

I would immagine so. I can't immagine vampire working without this mechanic in place.

[qeraqjeremy]

wait so only mafia and witches are immune to vampires except vampire hunters?
cant sk just stab the vampire with his knife
arso burn the vampire alive
and ww if full moon,just go full attack on the vampire.

also what if mafia attacks the VH can it say
'You found the Vampire Hunter so you don't kill him/Burn him(for arso)"
so really, vampire hunters also can win with sk,mafia,and arso
BUT:cant win with ww mabey because ww can be Vh target other then V
also how is spy going to listen to vampires and mafia, at least let the spy choose who to spy on
also would it be fair for the spy to find who the Vampires bites because the spy would just say who and get him lynch.so dont let spy see who the vampires bites


also out of nowhere can you add a role like the arso except he uses bombs and vest and doc can save them and you see a text if the bomb is gunna go off that night.also if anyone else comes to your house and you are healed or vested,if healed doc will also survive and anyone else who come over will die and if vested you will only survive if anyone else comes(lookouts and spy cant die but escort,invest,sheriff,and other town roles can die)will die.lookout cant die because they are outside at a safe distance and spy cant die from bomb at mafia because he know if the bomb is going off too and gets away before the bomb goes off(also if the mafia tries to kill spy, the spy will not be killed or anyone who is going to be attacked by mafia)and survives the explosion.lastly, if the bombs go off, everyone else will get a text saying they herd a loud bang .

[strategyzrox]

Here's a few arguments against these two roles.

Vampire:

Again, I'm not saying I don't want this role added, I just don't want it in ranked. The only argument that I've seen supporting them in ranked is that Town wins too much and they will bring down their win rate. The big problem with this argument is that it doesn't account for bring the already low win rates of Mafia and NKs down even further, since they can't win with Vampires. The big goal of making Town weaker is to equalize all faction win rates to an extent. Mafia and NKs having a lower win rate is to be expected, but not at the extreme levels it's at now. Beyond this I've yet to see any arguments to why they belong in ranked (If I missed it point it out). Vampires could be fun in chaos, but they just don't seem to have a place in ranked. Again though, I'm willing to give it a shot, but I'd rather Vampire not be added to ranked the moment it gets released, and instead it be tested in other game modes first.

The thing is that vampires won't really affect the mafia that much, because vampires can't bite the mafia. The only win rate they will really affect is the town. The number of players opposing the mafia in a game is constant, even if those opposing the mafia are now in two separate factions. These factions also oppose each other, and this division will be beneficial for NKs and the mafia. What's more, all other things being equal, mafia should actually prefer vampires to town, since townies have specialized abilites that can oppose the mafia.

Another argument for including the vampires in ranked is that many people value having all possible roles in ranked. No role is excluded. I feel like this should also be the case (eventually, after being tested and perfected in other game modes) with the vamp and VH, even if the vamp could only be rolled by the any.

[RhazhBash]

Here's a few arguments against these two roles.

Vampire:

Again, I'm not saying I don't want this role added, I just don't want it in ranked. The only argument that I've seen supporting them in ranked is that Town wins too much and they will bring down their win rate. The big problem with this argument is that it doesn't account for bring the already low win rates of Mafia and NKs down even further, since they can't win with Vampires. The big goal of making Town weaker is to equalize all faction win rates to an extent. Mafia and NKs having a lower win rate is to be expected, but not at the extreme levels it's at now. Beyond this I've yet to see any arguments to why they belong in ranked (If I missed it point it out). Vampires could be fun in chaos, but they just don't seem to have a place in ranked. Again though, I'm willing to give it a shot, but I'd rather Vampire not be added to ranked the moment it gets released, and instead it be tested in other game modes first.

The thing is that vampires won't really affect the mafia that much, because vampires can't bite the mafia. The only win rate they will really affect is the town. The number of players opposing the mafia in a game is constant, even if those opposing the mafia are now in two separate factions. These factions also oppose each other, and this division will be beneficial for NKs and the mafia. What's more, all other things being equal, mafia should actually prefer vampires to town, since townies have specialized abilites that can oppose the mafia.

Another argument for including the vampires in ranked is that many people value having all possible roles in ranked. No role is excluded. I feel like this should also be the case (eventually, after being tested and perfected in other game modes) with the vamp and VH, even if the vamp could only be rolled by the any.

[Alicitzen]

Way to quote someone and add nothing to it dude.

[RhazhBash]

Way to quote someone and add nothing to it dude.

Yeah I had a post there, then my internet died, then it came back and I didn't realize the post went away XD

[theresnobirds]

This is the single worst idea I have ever seen on this game.

Why do we need another faction? I can see how the administrators would think Townies wouldn't throw away their roles for something that would remove their abilities, but the idea of this cancer— don't deny what it is, in-game malignant cancer— is just so jarring. The game's hard enough as it is for Neutrals and sensible players, and having another faction that does nothing but spread impotence is pointless. We have 30 roles, we don't need another that seeks to replace them.

And Vampire Hunters?
You might as well just stop playing. As a TK role that only breaks Vampires— who can't do anything outside of spreading their mess, by the way— it denies the Town potentially useful roles like the Vigilante and Veteran that can kill BOTH VAMPIRES AND MAFIA. Why not just make a Mafia role that indoctrinates Townies? If you're going for this sort of conversion thing, that's fine. But please don't make it an aspect of the game that detracts from the rest of it.

Also acknowledge that every other game that's tried this has failed.

[xXmasterbaitsXx]

he only argument that I've seen supporting them in ranked is that Town wins too much and they will bring down their win rate. The big problem with this argument is that it doesn't account for bring the already low win rates of Mafia and NKs down even further, since they can't win with Vampires. The big goal of making Town weaker is to equalize all faction win rates to an extent. Mafia and NKs having a lower win rate is to be expected

Going to stop you there. Mafia and the werewolf cannot be converted. All the vamprie is capable of doing is dividing the town, hiding roles when a vampire dies (they appear in the GY as vampire rather than their original role) and causing townies to suspect confirmed players. They're not going to hurt the mafia at all.