Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby TrollXDee » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:50 pm

GabiRamo69 wrote:[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]

Let me address the following first.

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.

That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.


----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).

----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.


Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.

PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.

Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.

Listen to your ranked players please ^^

- Oxy



I agree with what Oxy is saying, NK isn't already too bad in all any and chaos modes, it is pretty decent. For ranked, 6 mafia is a great idea.

On another note, I do agree with the juggernaut change, NKs should always have basic defense. But that's about it!

Some other ideas if you want to slightly buff NK:

Make them roleblock immune: SK and Werewolf don't kill the roleblocker, they just kill/maul their targets. Arsonist is immune, or if you want to make him a bit more special, he can douse the roleblocker and ignore the original target, unless if he is igniting, then he should ignore that, the igniting thing is to stop escort from just roleblocking the arsonist over and over again with no penalty.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Circi » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:59 pm

I'd like to start off by saying a sincere thank you to the devs for making changes to the game! Many people, myself included, have felt that the game can be wildly unbalanced at times, and I really appreciate making an effort to fix it.

However, as a ranked player, I fully agree with the concerns shared by Tuule, French, Tyler, and Gabi that these new changes will drastically unbalance the gamemode.

SK
If an SK kills an escort and his intended target d1, and mafia gets a kill, town will have already lost majority by day 2. SK games already move very fast, with evils usually gaining majority by day 3 or 4. This would push an already precarious situation over the top.

Regarding unreadable escort wills, I agree that it is frustrating when an escort randomly roleblocks you N1, but as stated above, town is already under a lot of pressure to either lynch or execute evils d2/n2 in SK games. Evils already have a good chance of winning in SK games, so I don't think any changes are necessary.

WW
Like the SK Patch, this would make NKs too OP as town would quickly lose majoirty with no way to counter. Not just in ranked, but in modes like all and any, this would give WW a huge advantage over other NKs and mafia. Surviving to Night 4 isn't hard enough to warrant such a large boost to abilities after Night 4.

Arso
Again, passive dousing would be too OP. Because I do think arso is comparatively weak, I would suggest making it roleblock immune, similar to SK and WW mechanics.


The lookout nerf is intriguing, and could potentially give evils more claimspace. This is the only patch I'd be interested in seeing go through. However, I do think it might swing the balance too far in favor of evils. I think a better change would be to buff weak maf roles such as framer instead of nerfing town.


Once again, a big thank you to the devs for listening to our feedback ^^
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Queenofswords » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:59 pm

I was unsure about commenting on this cause I'll admit I'm not exactly the person who should be talking about balance, but I've decided I should just to point out something not a lot of others may think of. I'm not that good at this game, and I don't play ranked. (I want to but due to crash issues I don't dare.) I do however play a lot of all any, and arsonists coming out of nowhere and killing everyone already happens a lot, I don't want to imagine how bad that's gonna get if these changes go through. Like dear God please no. I won't comment on how it will affect ranked cause I don't know. but I do know the arso changes would not be fun in All Any. Not at all. Please don't. Or if you're really insistent at least make arso unique to balance that fact out. Please?
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby FRCFresh » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:08 pm

Honestly the Arsonist could see a better buff; optionally douse everybody that visits the person you're dousing, but be unable to douse the day after. For example:

N1: Choose to douse A, but not their visitors.
N2: Choose to douse B, and their visitors C, D.
N3: Ignite.
N4: Choose to douse E, and their visitor F.
N5: Unable to douse.
N6: Choose to douse F, and their visitors E, G.
N7: Ignite.

This buff makes the Arsonist a massive rampaging threat to the Jailor meta, much like a Werewolf on N2, but killing all players that visited the target on N1, however doesn't turn the role into a mass-sweeping maniac. Overall, I would love the Arsonist to see a buff, and I believe this is a much healthier way to go.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby cob709 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:10 pm

Circi wrote:I'd like to start off by saying a sincere thank you to the devs for making changes to the game! Many people, myself included, have felt that the game can be wildly unbalanced at times, and I really appreciate making an effort to fix it.

However, as a ranked player, I fully agree with the concerns shared by Tuule, French, Tyler, and Gabi that these new changes will drastically unbalance the gamemode.

SK
If an SK kills an escort and his intended target d1, and mafia gets a kill, town will have already lost majority by day 2. SK games already move very fast, with evils usually gaining majority by day 3 or 4. This would push an already precarious situation over the top.

Regarding unreadable escort wills, I agree that it is frustrating when an escort randomly roleblocks you N1, but as stated above, town is already under a lot of pressure to either lynch or execute evils d2/n2 in SK games. Evils already have a good chance of winning in SK games, so I don't think any changes are necessary.

WW
Like the SK Patch, this would make NKs too OP as town would quickly lose majoirty with no way to counter. Not just in ranked, but in modes like all and any, this would give WW a huge advantage over other NKs and mafia. Surviving to Night 4 isn't hard enough to warrant such a large boost to abilities after Night 4.

Arso
Again, passive dousing would be too OP. Because I do think arso is comparatively weak, I would suggest making it roleblock immune, similar to SK and WW mechanics.


The lookout nerf is intriguing, and could potentially give evils more claimspace. This is the only patch I'd be interested in seeing go through. However, I do think it might swing the balance too far in favor of evils. I think a better change would be to buff weak maf roles such as framer instead of nerfing town.


Once again, a big thank you to the devs for listening to our feedback ^^

I'll offer some alternatives that might work.

SK
Make the Serial Killer roleblock and control immune. and the SK should no longer attack roleblockers.
This will solve the issue of SK being cocked N1, and make sure they have a consistent kill stream.

WW
The suggested pattern WW was N2, N4, N5, N6, N7, etc
Perhaps this new attack pattern would be better: N1, (wait 3 nights), N4, (wait 2 nights), N6, (wait 1 night), N7, N8, N9
This will slow the WW down early in the game, giving town the chance to make their moves, while also buffing WW later on.

Arsonist
I agree, passive dousing is wayy too powerful. Perhaps make it something like a Veteran ability.
If Arsonist chooses to not douse anyone, they will douse anyone that visits them. This forces arsonist to make a choice between dousing a potential threat to them, or dousing randoms.

----------

These obviously aren't the perfect solution, but they were based off of feedback from everyone else.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby emslaya » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:20 pm

emslaya wrote:
GabiRamo69 wrote:
PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.



Yeah, while I support the reworks the Dev team is looking to do, it would probably be a good idea to end the current ranked season and wait to roll out these reworks so that they go live at the same time the next ranked season begins. (I'm also a bit biased here as I've grown bored of ranked now that I'm master elo and have no higher level to strive for and as someone who only started playing ToS in Spring 2019, I REALLY want those Ranked Master ELO prizes!! :( )


Following up on my earlier post after thinking more about it and reading some of the other thoughts folks have shared on this thread. Completely agree that these reworks would make ranked games very unbalanced because of the proposed WW/Arso buffs. A new ranked rolelist should be put in place before the proposed role reworks go live.

TLDR;
  • The proposed patch's role reworks would lead to unbalanced ranked games due to the WW/Arso buffs.
  • If/when patch is introduced, it should go live after the current ranked season ends. (And preferably go live at the same time the following ranked season begins!)
  • If/when patch is introduced, ranked should be using a new rolelist to fix the balance issues.

I still support the proposed role reworks for the most part but the above 3 points need to be taken into account before proceeding with the rollout of this patch.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Circi » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:23 pm

cob709 wrote:I'll offer some alternatives that might work.

SK
Make the Serial Killer roleblock and control immune. and the SK should no longer attack roleblockers.
This will solve the issue of SK being cocked N1, and make sure they have a consistent kill stream.

WW
The suggested pattern WW was N2, N4, N5, N6, N7, etc
Perhaps this new attack pattern would be better: N1, (wait 3 nights), N4, (wait 2 nights), N6, (wait 1 night), N7, N8, N9
This will slow the WW down early in the game, giving town the chance to make their moves, while also buffing WW later on.

Arsonist
I agree, passive dousing is wayy too powerful. Perhaps make it something like a Veteran ability.
If Arsonist chooses to not douse anyone, they will douse anyone that visits them. This forces arsonist to make a choice between dousing a potential threat to them, or dousing randoms.

----------

These obviously aren't the perfect solution, but they were based off of feedback from everyone else.


SK is fine as it is. Escorts/consorts should have at least some impact on SK, or town and maf would be weakened.

Slowing WW down in early game just makes it harder for evils to gain majority. WW should be able to kill consistently, but allowing it to rampage every night after Night 4 is like giving a buffed vet unlimited alerts.

I would argue that making an arso vet would actually harm evils, as it just takes away control from the arso and gives it a higher chance to douse evils.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Matty89190 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:27 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again: LO's power comes from the meta, so tackle the meta, not the role.

Make it so that LO cannot whisper their previous night's target (or something similar) so that if they want to confirm TPs, they also out them to everyone and give mafia a roadmap.

Capping what LO can see only adds RNG to the role and lowers the skill ceiling, since there's no guarantee of who you'll see.

I like the jugg and ww buffs, I have mixed feelings on sk and arso. I think just having the will be scrubbed might be enough for sk, the double kill is a bit much since multi-kills are usually reserved for less frequent killers.

The arso change.... If its going to be that powerful, it needs to be more detectable. With good baiting, and arso could wipe town ridiculously fast. Of all the NK changes, this one is the most OP.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby williewest » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:37 pm

Achilles wrote:Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

Will the feedback be shared between multiple arsos, or will one only get feedback for events that happen regarding them specifically?
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Tislen » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:47 pm

I'm really late to the party on this :( , this'll be my first post that isn't a ban appeal if there are any formatting errors I'll try to edit it, apologies in advance.

Superalex11 wrote:I'm not sure what the deal is with the lookout change, though. If it's to deal with the tplo meta, it will have a meaningless effect on that matter. When following the meta, the average number of visits to a jailor (excluding the lo watching) is 2.42, maybe rounded up to 2.5 if you include spies and escorts n1. The probability that there's more than 3 visits is only 17%, again maybe rounded to 20% if you include spies and escorts. That means that this change would have 0 impact in at least 4 of every 5 games, and probably otherwise negligible impact in a much greater proportion - this all being based on rng of course, something you'd usually want to avoid.


I could be wrong, I posted this on reddit so I'll just copy and paste it, but I believe the average visits to jailor night one in an optimally played group who knows this change (assuming there is no priority for who shows up to the Lookout) is going to be a lot higher:

Lets take a look at the average amount of Jailor-visitors in an optimal group in a game where we assume there is a Lookout (as if there is none it doesn't matter)
TIs -- This nerf only matters if there's a LO in the game, so we'll assume one of the TIs is LO. Second TI has a 50% chance of being a LO or Spy. Average Jailor visits produced by TI: 1/2.
TP -- This will always visit Jailor so that's +1 Jailor visitor.
TS -- This will visit Jailor if it's an Escort (out of the five options). Getting Mayor or Retri also increases chance of RTs being jailor-visitors. So +1/5.
TK -- 50% chance of being Vet which will increase the chance of RTs being jailor-visitors.
RTs -- Of the 13 town role options, five visit the Jailor. Ignoring the unique-role complexity (so getting a lower bound for how many jailor-visitors there are on average), it's a 5/13 chance of getting a jailor-visitor per-RT. Thus +15/13.

So for town visits alone the total amount of Jailor-visitors on average in a Lookout game (not counting Lookout) is 2.85384615, since this game would only be in whole numbers that seems to suggest more often than not you'll reach your limit from town alone.

but that was just the town

Now we'll consider RMs, since with the Lookout nerf it is now optimal for RMs like Framer, Disguiser, and even Forger to always visit Jailor n1 so that their Mafioso and GF can safely claim TP and even if Spy sees a visit to Jailor n1 the LO can't be certain they were shown the RMs visiting (in fact this entire theory depends on which visits the LO sees when they get too many: is it random? Based on lobby order? Role order? Role order would be the worst option by far).
RMs -- of the seven RM options, 3 will visit jailor (four if you want to include Consort), so that's +6/7.
NKs -- Arsonists will also visit Jailor n1, so that's +1/3.
Leading to a total average amount of Jailor visitors in a game with a Lookout (remember this is an underestimate since it didn't consider the increased chance of RTs being visitors due to unique roles)
4.044322344319011* Jailor visitors in a Lookout game.
*albiet to be fair this number doesn't consider Jailor jailing one of the Jailor-visitors, but even if it does that still hits the important three on average.

The amount being four isn't really relevant, if you get three visits as a Lookout that's all mafia, NE, NK, etc. needs to be able to safely claim TP, so it's a big nerf.



GabiRamo69 wrote:

Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.



I really don't understand this take, transporter not being confirmed based on the argument that they trans'd mafia members is a maybe but Jailor not being confirmed and a good evil being able to get the real one hung? In a ranked game? I haven't played ranked in a while but can you explain how you hang a Jailor who played optimally by claiming day one?

GabiRamo69 wrote:

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.



Since I haven't played a lot of ranked to get a good idea of how strong town is I used Pipetron's 30 latest ranked games which were either (a) after the retri nerf or (b) didn't include retri and thus the nerf didn't influence the results of the game.

(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFHQd5OTOAc -- mafia win, NK dies d5
(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz8SOIAALQI -- WW win, NK doesn't die, so we'll say d11 (outlier)
(3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj4x_oBpgAQ -- town win , NK dies d2 (probably outlier, we'll see)
(4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kraGvFlKFs -- draw, NK dies d4
(5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0ZZ6O9lUY -- SK win, NK wins, d9.
(6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOVU7o2o0S4 -- town win, NK dies d6
(7) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm-BKRoaQ4Q -- town win, NK dies n2
(8) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqRde5lI_mM -- town win, NK dies n4
(9) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M7pwfkAvzk -- town win, NK dies d6
(10) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK1zHzWcbgY -- town win, NK dies n1 (outlier)
-------Those were all after the retri rework now we're at before---
(11) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dApL2BnfU-U -- town win, NK dies n2
(12) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlgbdob7sEI -- town win, NK dies d2
(13) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcf6dFRti1Y -- town win, NK dies n2
(14) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKXOVR0u9B0 -- town win, NK dies d3
(15) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3SgsP93FvM -- town win, NK dies d2
(16) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dMtHChjAVA -- mafia win, NK dies n6 (got cleaned, ran into bet, it was Yolo Glasses)
(17) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zopW2scriQ -- mafia win, NK dies d2
(18) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqGEyuciBio -- town win, NK dies n2
(19) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr8ZMc59rCw -- mafia win, NK dies n4
(20) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8-8Od8muok -- town win, NK dies n3
(21) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy2B7Hf5JUg -- town win, NK dies n4
(22) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiEJ6SSS3QQ -- mafia win, NK dies n2
(23) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlIRRC13bm4 -- town win, NK dies n3
(24) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MZUFpzSP9g -- town win, NK dies d5
(25) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEiYAA3C2WM -- mafia win, NK dies n2
(26) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N2-VeQHDIA -- town win, NK dies d9 (arguable outlier)
(27) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M4VLhtSpMo -- town win, NK dies d3
(28) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgpoKpIJqVg -- mafia win, NK dies d6
(29) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffnfx-TF0e4 -- town win, NK dies d4
(30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XgCXkGUmDA -- town win, NK dies n2
*note that there is potential bias towards town having a better winrate IF pipetron is selective in which games he posts since he'd be favored to post those he wins on and he's more favored to be town than not, I don't think it's the case, but it could be.

From this small sample size we get a rough idea for winrates:
Town -- 66.7%, Mafia -- 23.3%, NK -- 6.7% (rounded up post first decimal)

Town's win rate based on this is absurd if you assume that all factions should win equally, currently the grind issue of ELO is perpetuated by town being strong enough to carry players that don't perform. I personally want all factions to have equal win rates. I don't know what win rates should be ideal, I mainly just believe that if town makes two mistakes they should lose, balancing is very difficult in this game due to not knowing what is an optimal winrate for each faction.


GabiRamo69 wrote:
----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.



You're tying evils into one faction, in most cases this is correct I personally as NK expect to lose and act to make mafia win. HOWEVER, if NK is stronger, has a higher winrate, AND I care about ELO? (I currently don't I have no reason to care once I'm well into masters there's nothing I personally get out of grinding but if I did) I would be using that town needs my vote as NK to get rid of mafia, if I lynch Jailor I'm certain to lose unless I'm confident in killing a mafia or NE siding with me, and maybe I lynch jailor anyway with Vigis, Vets, Transporters there is still a chance town wins so long as NK doesn't become an honorary mafia member, which these changes correctly discourage. On another note: if an Escort RBs SK night one they didn't go on Jailor, that currently is a mistake (with the Lookout change though it's okay as they may not want to overload visits on Jailor, so considering that was actually pretty smart since LO change makes Escorts not want to go on Jailor).


GabiRamo69 wrote:
----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).



I don't see how this can kill TP/LO/Esc/Spy meta, just have Jailor claim and ask for it, if Arsonist claims Jailor along with them jail the Arsonist and lynch them d2 or execute them, yes it slightly increases Jailor's chance of dying but if Jailor 1 for 1s with NK town is favored. If Jailor doesn't ask for TP/Lo/Esc/Spy that's a missplay and town deserves the loss. (If you want to play around Arsonist dousing you ask for transporter as well, decreases chance of you dying n2 overall if you calculate it).

Of note, TT mode is an example where the same Arso change is mimicked by TT Vet, however TT Vet is far less likely than Arso so you can argue it wouldn't change the meta + players are just worse there.

GabiRamo69 wrote:
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.



Lets look back at the 30 games of Pipetron that I just used as a sample size to consider town's winrate to find out the average death timer for NK, using a death on dX as a death on N(X-1) since NKs can't do anything during the day, NK dies on average by night 3.4, that means this WW change, on average, literally just doesn't happen based on my small sample size, I suspect on larger samples it will get lower but I could be wrong.

GabiRamo69 wrote:

Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.



Removing NK and NE from the game removes the amount of possible role options in ranked causing the game to be even more repetitive than it already is, I don't think that's a good idea, furthermore this makes the game 6v6 after one misslynch with town having zero chance of winning cause there are six mafia, especially considering the increased chance of Consort, then town would lose 100%. I personally think a more proper change would be changing NK to have different win rates than beating town so that hey don't necessarily have to side against them (they can be neutral like their name, even if their initial requirements hurt town), then heavily buffing mafia so they're more interesting to play.


Edit: I forgot to note this, but BMG I'm actually really proud of you. It's been a MASSIVE amount of time since from my view any investment has been made on seriously shifting the balance in this game and regardless of people's opinion (I think these are good, but regardless) it's good that you're doing anything. These changes make me excited to go back into ranked and see how the dynamic has changed, I've been meming around in TT and all any for a while now due to how stale I feel the game is but this gets me excited, as GF I can actually claim BG? I can fake LO more often than being 14 or 15th on VFR? Yes please!
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Achilles » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:20 pm

The Lookout change is intended to specifically counter the LO/jailor meta.

The goal of the NK buffs is to increase their KPN potential, making them a bigger threat since they are generally a 1 person faction.

The Psychic change is a non-change, it just isn't tied to full moon nights anymore so that WW transformations could be tweaked.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby mathboi404 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:41 pm

Just want to quickly point out that the LO achievement (It's a party!) needs to be reworked if this patch ever goes live.

Maybe change the achievement to LO being on himself?
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby fyre4000 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:00 pm

The last thing that needs to happen is to give Jugg an invest result. A good suggestion I found was to put them in, say, the Sheriff, Executioner, Werewolf, and Poisoner group, but don't actually put the role in the list. So a jugg would show up as one of those roles, but because it's a "hidden" role, it wouldn't say that they might be a jugg.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby LAVABOEMER » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:24 pm

Achilles wrote:Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.

I really hope you reconsider this. It wouldn't do much more than implement an element of RNG that I feel is unnecessary.
Many people pointed out, it's not often that more than 3 people visit your target, however what they seem to fail to see is that seeing 3 people visit 1 person is already enough for other people to claim they also visited the same person if this were to go into effect.
The main reason I don't want this change is simply because of the element of RNG and feeling like being able to see everyone who visits your target isn't the problem with lookout.

I don't really have a comment on the Werewolf and Serial Killer, they look okay, but I'll have to see how they'd play to get a grip at how good the change idea's are.

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

I absolutely love this change, having feedback on who is doused combined with dousing someone who visits you will give you some viable info to work with.
Got attacked? No Mafia kills? Someone you never visited got doused? You now know who the Mafioso/GF is and could use this info to either blackmail mafia or convince town to lynch them over you.
Also, having some extra dousing ability will make the arsonist way more viable and you'll have to worry less about keeping the people you already doused alive.

Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.

Juggernaut not having any defense for 3 nights was definitely often their downfall. I think starting them off with basic defense is a great change and I feel like the next logical step is to give them an actual investigative result
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby WJLM » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:49 pm

Achilles wrote:Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).


I did send a role change idea to you earlier requesting that arso douses all rbers, but I think this is a bit too OP.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:51 pm

Nice.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Ddynamo » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:56 pm

These are interesting changes, but I don't know if they are for the better. The lookout change, while an attempt to circumvent TP/LO meta, just feels underwhelming. Even if more than three people do visit, it's still three people that are near confirmed town. Personally, if I was to nerf LO at all, it would be that if the Lookout sees more than three visit, they get overloaded and don't see any visits at all. Aside from that, the Werewolf change seems fine to me, but the Arsonist and SK buff don't feel right. For Serial Killer, I would change it so they just cover the will of the Escort/Consort in blood and leave it at that. NK don't need to be that strong as they only exist to speed up the game, even if most people don't find having a low chance of victory very fun. For Arsonist... maybe know who they doused and douse whoever their target visits on even nights?

Unrelated, but other changes I would make is...
  1. Escort/Consort don't leave notifications on the people they roleblock. Investigative roles receive the message "No Result" when Roleblocked.
  2. Related to the above, but maybe not notify people if they were witched either?
  3. Jester has a two use ability to make them investigate as suspicious. Executioner has the same, but for their target.
Support the Lamia, an evil sorceress that uses magic to hide visitors!
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby InnocuousNobody » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:27 pm

The stupid board made me re-log in and deleted my entire post so I'll do a summary of my thoughts for this go.

Arso would finally be an exciting role to get, though having him throw a keg of gas at a house and dousing all visitors, on a 2 night cooldown while retaining the ability to douse while on cd, would probably cause less whining, though I do love what dousing visitors would do for the jailor/mayor meta.
SK getting a free kill on escort isn't as godawful as all of you seem to think it is, it makes Med valuable when they're RT.
I agree that the WW changes are fine.

NK getting this much of a buff makes it exciting to roll into them again and I would love to see the patch go through despite all the whining I saw in the comments. Keep LO where they are though please, with NK getting this much of a step up and Maf having the potential to lynch with impunity with claims of "THIS PERSONS NK", town will need the power it has. Especially with the Ret rework still being fresh and needing exploration. Maf will know SK if consort finds them and they can deal with SK at anytime, changing the dousing visitors to a keg (maybe make them rb immune, that might be too strong though) should make the maf less inclined to insta reveal an arso when WW doesn't kill anyone n2 and WW sounds like more of a threat than they were which puts more pressure on town not to be stupid and free with their lynchings. This rework would make town have to be actively engaged in the game and should make everything a lot more competitive than it's ever been, which i'm entirely for. As far as I can see these changes bring the SOLO faction more in line against the TEAMS, NK will become even better in the hands of a good player and even the less informed players should have some success with these changes. NK won't be as much of a ~maybe kinda sorta potentially win if the town sucks horribly and I get lucky once or twice~ anymore and has a better chance of getting NE support since they can feasibly hit end game consistently now.

My other gripe with this thread is that none of you seem to understand that the Unity port is done now. We won't be going years between changes anymore (theoretically), they can balance and change the game as data dictates is needed. So let them try out a few cool ideas before the reset so we can go into a genuinely enjoyable season and stop spitting in their eye before you've even tried it.
In search of a great perhaps...
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Purple998 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:46 pm

AHHHHHH
Who needs a "GF", when you have your own hands? -Mafioso




If you read this yu gai xd
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby DFrenchBoi » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:09 pm

Tislen wrote:
GabiRamo69 wrote:

Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.




I really don't understand this take, transporter not being confirmed based on the argument that they trans'd mafia members is a maybe but Jailor not being confirmed and a good evil being able to get the real one hung? In a ranked game? I haven't played ranked in a while but can you explain how you hang a Jailor who played optimally by claiming day one?


An evil claiming transporter can simply keep track of who was transported and then write that in their will, appearing identical to the other transporter claim. As for jailors being lynched, not only do you operate on the assumption that doing jailor meta is optimal, when there are many, many reasons it is not; you also think that a jailor could not be lynched. There are multiple videos on Youtuber Holly the Mayor's channel where she will lynch the jailor, in some cases they meta, in other cases they do not. Jailors are not immune from lynching if the mafia is aggressive and town is not aggressive enough. The only person who can confirm the real jailor is their jailee, a mafia member can have their other 3 mafia confirm them in some way or another.

Tislen wrote:
GabiRamo69 wrote:

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.




Since I haven't played a lot of ranked to get a good idea of how strong town is I used Pipetron's 30 latest ranked games which were either (a) after the retri nerf or (b) didn't include retri and thus the nerf didn't influence the results of the game.

(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFHQd5OTOAc -- mafia win, NK dies d5
(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz8SOIAALQI -- WW win, NK doesn't die, so we'll say d11 (outlier)
(3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj4x_oBpgAQ -- town win , NK dies d2 (probably outlier, we'll see)
(4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kraGvFlKFs -- draw, NK dies d4
(5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0ZZ6O9lUY -- SK win, NK wins, d9.
(6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOVU7o2o0S4 -- town win, NK dies d6
(7) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm-BKRoaQ4Q -- town win, NK dies n2
(8) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqRde5lI_mM -- town win, NK dies n4
(9) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M7pwfkAvzk -- town win, NK dies d6
(10) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK1zHzWcbgY -- town win, NK dies n1 (outlier)
-------Those were all after the retri rework now we're at before---
(11) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dApL2BnfU-U -- town win, NK dies n2
(12) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlgbdob7sEI -- town win, NK dies d2
(13) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcf6dFRti1Y -- town win, NK dies n2
(14) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKXOVR0u9B0 -- town win, NK dies d3
(15) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3SgsP93FvM -- town win, NK dies d2
(16) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dMtHChjAVA -- mafia win, NK dies n6 (got cleaned, ran into bet, it was Yolo Glasses)
(17) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zopW2scriQ -- mafia win, NK dies d2
(18) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqGEyuciBio -- town win, NK dies n2
(19) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr8ZMc59rCw -- mafia win, NK dies n4
(20) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8-8Od8muok -- town win, NK dies n3
(21) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy2B7Hf5JUg -- town win, NK dies n4
(22) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiEJ6SSS3QQ -- mafia win, NK dies n2
(23) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlIRRC13bm4 -- town win, NK dies n3
(24) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MZUFpzSP9g -- town win, NK dies d5
(25) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEiYAA3C2WM -- mafia win, NK dies n2
(26) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N2-VeQHDIA -- town win, NK dies d9 (arguable outlier)
(27) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M4VLhtSpMo -- town win, NK dies d3
(28) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgpoKpIJqVg -- mafia win, NK dies d6
(29) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffnfx-TF0e4 -- town win, NK dies d4
(30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XgCXkGUmDA -- town win, NK dies n2
*note that there is potential bias towards town having a better winrate IF pipetron is selective in which games he posts since he'd be favored to post those he wins on and he's more favored to be town than not, I don't think it's the case, but it could be.

From this small sample size we get a rough idea for winrates:
Town -- 66.7%, Mafia -- 23.3%, NK -- 6.7% (rounded up post first decimal)

Town's win rate based on this is absurd if you assume that all factions should win equally, currently the grind issue of ELO is perpetuated by town being strong enough to carry players that don't perform. I personally want all factions to have equal win rates. I don't know what win rates should be ideal, I mainly just believe that if town makes two mistakes they should lose, balancing is very difficult in this game due to not knowing what is an optimal winrate for each faction.


This data set is ABSOLUTELY biased, you even mentioned it under the list of videos that he is a youtuber and is more likely to post his wins than his losses. What you have actually done is created a list of numbers that is very close to the rate at which you will roll that faction: 3/5 or 60% (+7 % in YT) for town, 4/15 or 26.7% (-3.4% in YT) for mafia, and 1/15 or 6.7% (same in YT) for NK. This data set is completely flawed as are most that are gathered about the game.

The only real way for this to be properly tracked is for every game that is played, it will be put into a publicly viewable set of data, reports about the game can be brought forward to show any potential problems with a game: throwing, AFKing, cheating (in rare cases), unfair role list (less of a problem as Oxy mentioned), and for other information about the game to be entered as well along with links to full chat logs of the game (optional, but could help show how the game flows with different changes). This would be very difficult to set up, but it would go a long way to help balance the game in a meaningful way.

Your assumption that ALL factions should win equally is flawed. Why should a player have a 1/15 chance of getting a faction that wins 1/3rd of the time? That's simply ridiculous, that is adding more randomness as a factor to the game, not less. NK winrate should be between 5 and 10% in my opinion, Town between 50-55%, and Mafia between 35-40%. Town should win around half to a bit more than half of the time, otherwise evil will be less of a challenge. If you make it so every faction has an equal winrate that will allow players who just don't try to win, which is currently a problem with town but making this a problem with evil is not a solution whatsoever. Many evils already barely try, simply making a fake claim with little coordination and performing their ability to a mediocre degree of effectiveness. Nobody should be allowed to win without trying, the solution to town being too easy is not to make evil too easy.

Tislen wrote:
GabiRamo69 wrote:

----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.




You're tying evils into one faction, in most cases this is correct I personally as NK expect to lose and act to make mafia win. HOWEVER, if NK is stronger, has a higher winrate, AND I care about ELO? (I currently don't I have no reason to care once I'm well into masters there's nothing I personally get out of grinding but if I did) I would be using that town needs my vote as NK to get rid of mafia, if I lynch Jailor I'm certain to lose unless I'm confident in killing a mafia or NE siding with me, and maybe I lynch jailor anyway with Vigis, Vets, Transporters there is still a chance town wins so long as NK doesn't become an honorary mafia member, which these changes correctly discourage. On another note: if an Escort RBs SK night one they didn't go on Jailor, that currently is a mistake (with the Lookout change though it's okay as they may not want to overload visits on Jailor, so considering that was actually pretty smart since LO change makes Escorts not want to go on Jailor).


Firstly, in the early game/in an equal evils vs town scenario with many town (4, 5, 6) alive, evils SHOULD be acting like they are in the same faction. NK wants the mafia alive so they can kill, and the mafia wants the NK alive so THEY can kill. Also, even with the jailor dead in an equal scenario, mayors, transporters, escorts, vigilantes, veterans, bodyguards, and doctors can mess up evils and give town a win.

Secondly, the fact that you EXPECT to lose as NK is a major red flag. Why should anyone consider your opinion on the matter of whether making NK stronger is valid when at the current strength of NK you don't even try to win? Maybe you have a game you could win but you just aren't trying. Maybe you have many. Before you start asking for a role to be made easier, put effort into winning with it.

The fact that people are already planning around the lookout change is upsetting to me. Evils can already claim tp! Consort, forger, disguiser, framer, consig, janitor (normally if there are 2 one can go on the tp/lo request), and blackmailer, every single random mafia can already claim tp, spy, even lookout when someone asks for TP. As a random mafia, you WANT to be seen by the lookout. As random mafia, you visit the jailor to try and be seen so you can claim tp, spy, lookout, or escort. Arsonist visits to kill, but their visit still allows them to make a claim if a lookout sees them. Jester not being seen by a lookout is a POSITIVE, as they can be lynched and thus win.

Tislen wrote:
GabiRamo69 wrote: ----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).




I don't see how this can kill TP/LO/Esc/Spy meta, just have Jailor claim and ask for it, if Arsonist claims Jailor along with them jail the Arsonist and lynch them d2 or execute them, yes it slightly increases Jailor's chance of dying but if Jailor 1 for 1s with NK town is favored. If Jailor doesn't ask for TP/Lo/Esc/Spy that's a missplay and town deserves the loss. (If you want to play around Arsonist dousing you ask for transporter as well, decreases chance of you dying n2 overall if you calculate it).

Of note, TT mode is an example where the same Arso change is mimicked by TT Vet, however TT Vet is far less likely than Arso so you can argue it wouldn't change the meta + players are just worse there.


This absolutely can kill the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, and again with the jailor claiming! If there is an arsonist, which is presumably why with this patch the jailor would claim, to prevent the arsonist from getting people to visit them and then igniting them, the arsonist will just douse and ignite the jailor. Arsonists, consorts, witches, even blackmailers are precisely why jailors do not claim in more experience lobbies, along with the fact that once TPs have died the jailor will be killed the next night, along with whispering the jailor and a whole other variety of plays that become available if the jailor metas. Essentially, this change will mean that only the jailor or mayor will be able to ask for tp/lo and actually get it out of legitimate fears that this new patch will create of an arsonist slaughtering townies on night 2. If there is potential for an NK and therefore an arso, the tp/lo meta will fall apart. People who are not jailor already ask for tp/lo, it's not necessarily a mechanism of being protected but of giving townies a chance to confirm themself.

Tislen wrote:
GabiRamo69 wrote:-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.




Lets look back at the 30 games of Pipetron that I just used as a sample size to consider town's winrate to find out the average death timer for NK, using a death on dX as a death on N(X-1) since NKs can't do anything during the day, NK dies on average by night 3.4, that means this WW change, on average, literally just doesn't happen based on my small sample size, I suspect on larger samples it will get lower but I could be wrong.


Again, referring to the Pipetron videos. Since a majority of those games are town wins, the NK will have to die for the town to win. Since mafia has 4 members, and every single one of these members could become a killing role, the mafia will likely be getting 1 kill per night for most of the game. Experienced players and those who analyze games will recognize that an early NK death will often lead to evils losing the game, since that will be a loss of killing power that is often decisive for evils gaining majority. Since you used a data set with a disproportionate amount of town wins, you are going to have NK dying earlier than they often do. In the 1/3 of games where there is a werewolf, many of those games on night 2 have a werewolf attacking the jailor or the person with TP on them because they either believe they cannot win or legitimately believe that they cannot win. If they were to attack a town member, they are much more likely to last till night 4/night 5.

Another of the problems with werewolf is that they will often either kill themself on night 2 by dying to a bodyguard or will kill a mafia member either directly or by rampaging on a mafia target. A potential fix for this is not allowing mafia members to be killed by a werewolf on night 2, but I prefer the werewolf having to either bait town members to visit them or to have to actually scumread properly and kill a town member.

The fact that a data set being referred to to try and prove a point is a set of Youtube videos that are definitely going to show a bias is the reason I earlier proposed that BMG create a data set of every game (maybe just every ranked game if it is easier) to allow for accurate statistics and players, moderators, and devs alike having correct information for when they are playing, deciding what is in fact gamethrowing, or trying to release a good balancing patch.

Tislen wrote:
GabiRamo69 wrote: Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.




Removing NK and NE from the game removes the amount of possible role options in ranked causing the game to be even more repetitive than it already is, I don't think that's a good idea, furthermore this makes the game 6v6 after one misslynch with town having zero chance of winning cause there are six mafia, especially considering the increased chance of Consort, then town would lose 100%. I personally think a more proper change would be changing NK to have different win rates than beating town so that hey don't necessarily have to side against them (they can be neutral like their name, even if their initial requirements hurt town), then heavily buffing mafia so they're more interesting to play.


As to this point, I suggested that BMG add ambusher as a possible spawn in normal ranked games (not with the current role list, as a serial killer, ambusher, and mafioso can end the game immediately simply by luck). A mislynch would not end the game. If a jailor or vigilante is alive, they can save the game. Remember, by making it a 6 mafia game there is only 1 immune role since there is no NK and there cannot be an executioner or a witch. This could also resolve the problem many evils face of having an NK who is just not very good and does not get kills or kills mafia.

As to a mislynch losing the game, not only would that not be the case, but a mislynch is a very important method for evils to gain majority in the current situation of the game. A mislynch on day 2 if there is at least one town member dead can lead to the game being over since NK will always have a chance to kill on night 2, so if NK and mafia each kill a town member it's 5 v 5 and nobody can be voted.

To the devs: I really appreciate the effort you are putting into the game right now. Balancing is great for the game, but please listen to many of us when we say that these balances are not that, they will not balance the game. I have proposed a few ideas so I am not simply trying to be a naysayer, I know others who oppose these changes have put forward ideas as well. I hope you listen to us and we can all enjoy a better, more balanced game in the near future.
Last edited by DFrenchBoi on Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Amythyr » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:24 pm

Instead of buffing NKs in ranked, Better way is to go the coven way: that is add/create mafia with killing power and remove nk from ranked.
NK currently exist as balancing tool between factions and buffing them is detrimental to entire balance. Keeping a role that has to die for other factions sake isn't a good idea either. Thats why i am recommending to remove NK and buff mafia with more Killing Power in ranked.


Edit: Lookout nerf sucks. Add more astral powers if you want to nerf it. Giving partial information is worst way to nerf lookout
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:30 pm

I'd like to point out, for those complaining that this will break the balance of Ranked when all the evils are allied against all the Town, that the NK isn't supposed to be a lackey of the Mafia. He's supposed to apply his strength to keeping down whichever side is stronger, so that neither side can afford to spend their daily/nightly kill on the NK instead of the opposing team.

If the Mafia+NK together are able to easily trounce the Town, then maybe the NK will stop throwing in favor of the Mafia in every high-elo Ranked game.

Though, Oxy is right about this:

GabiRamo69 wrote:Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.


Having 3 different sides screws with the game of deception, making it partially a game of diplomacy. To become truly competitive, Ranked needs to become a deathmatch between exactly 2 sides.

...which might be part of the reason the NE and NK so often play like they're part of the Mafia.

(Also, buffing the SK and Arsonist has issues in All Any, because multiples of those roles can spawn there. However, I'm not sure that's a fatal problem.)
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby texer » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:56 pm

The LO change is actually good; it will make claiming doc/bg much easier for evils in the current TP/LO Jailor Meta. I'm 100% sure this Lookout change was done because of the meta.

I disagree with the idea that the TP/LO Jailor meta will go away because of the new arso change. All a jailor has to do is to just jail any other TP/LO (or jailor) claims; the town will know who the real jailor is based on who isn't getting jailed. Frankly, asking for TP/LO isn't enough for people to visit you, you have to openly claim jailor.

Giving the SK 2 kills is very overpowering. I think that either 1) the escort should have their will blocked OR 2) SK can kill two people, but not both. Frankly, I think only the first one is necessary. This change as it stands is just punishing escorts/consorts for roleblocking people who aren't part of their faction.

Games usually don't last that long after N4 so WW change is fine (I really think a better change would be to just give them powerful defense instead).

I don't know if Arso should be allowed to passively douse targets who visit them but I don't play Arso that much so who knows. Jugg should get powerful defense after some kills and an invest result.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby atrufflewormono » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:57 pm

Why not just limit the passive douse to about one player? At maximum only two people are getting doused. That's decent, right?
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby DeanAdamFry » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:00 pm

Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night

Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.


I think these changes could be toned down a bit, I am no expert on this game but I’d like to offer some alternative ideas.

General Neutral Killing Buffs
Killed targets have their last wills destroyed (SK blood splattered, WW cut up, Arso burnt etc.)

Reason: This will allow NK to be kept hidden with the side benefit of helping evil faction.

Serial Killer
Night Ability (3 charges) - Your attacks are Powerful tonight.

Reason: This will allow SK to kill those with basic defense, SK is the only NK who cannot kill other NK and other basic defense roles so this will help SK get over these hurdles.

Werewolf
Keep proposed changes you made, they are good for WW, puts more pressure on factions to find WW.

Arsonist
Passive Ability - Anyone that visits your targets house is also doused.

Reason: This will increase potential dousing without being too OP, this will allow witch to side with you and if you read the game right you can get multiple targets doused in one night like WW.

Juggernaut
Passive Ability - Lynch immunity. If voted up, you are immediately made innocent and game announces your role.

Reason: I see Juggernaut as opposite to Pestilence, Pestilence is immune at night and has to be hanged so Juggernaut should be immune during the day and has to be killed at night, if we keep basic defense as a 2nd kill upgrade it will allow town/evil time to find and kill Juggernaut before he gets too powerful.

What do you lads think?
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