Details of upcoming patch

[James2]

I can't recall the last time I saw someone in-game complain about Ret's existence. I've been playing for five years so it's probably happened, but it's not at all common.

I highly suspect that (on this and other issues) people who regularly post on the forum and/or ToS discord aren't representative of the playerbase as a whole.

[PatrykSzczescie]

Question: can taunted by dead players be taunted by living ones in the same phrase?

[Soulshade55r]

I can't recall the last time I saw someone in-game complain about Ret's existence. I've been playing for five years so it's probably happened, but it's not at all common.

I highly suspect that (on this and other issues) people who regularly post on the forum and/or ToS discord aren't representative of the playerbase as a whole.

What modes do you play? I see it a lot in ranked and TT, in general a lot of people hate retri or at least don't like it, it's generally one of those roles you think of when you talk about poorly made roles: Along with framer, spy, Disguiser, forger, Medium (ect. you get the point)

[James2]

I can't recall the last time I saw someone in-game complain about Ret's existence. I've been playing for five years so it's probably happened, but it's not at all common.

I highly suspect that (on this and other issues) people who regularly post on the forum and/or ToS discord aren't representative of the playerbase as a whole.

What modes do you play? I see it a lot in ranked and TT, in general a lot of people hate retri or at least don't like it, it's generally one of those roles you think of when you talk about poorly made roles: Along with framer, spy, Disguiser, forger, Medium (ect. you get the point)

I generally play VIP and TT these days. Though I've previously been a regular in RP and DP, and don't recall much complaining about it.

People in TT complain about ret not being able to be TT. It's not clear people would still object if it could, though in any event TT mode is a special case.

AFAIK there's no major push to remove all the other "poorly made" roles. Nor should there be.

[Soulshade55r]

I can't recall the last time I saw someone in-game complain about Ret's existence. I've been playing for five years so it's probably happened, but it's not at all common.

I highly suspect that (on this and other issues) people who regularly post on the forum and/or ToS discord aren't representative of the playerbase as a whole.

What modes do you play? I see it a lot in ranked and TT, in general a lot of people hate retri or at least don't like it, it's generally one of those roles you think of when you talk about poorly made roles: Along with framer, spy, Disguiser, forger, Medium (ect. you get the point)

I generally play VIP and TT these days. Though I've previously been a regular in RP and DP, and don't recall much complaining about it.

People in TT complain about ret not being able to be TT. It's not clear people would still object if it could, though in any event TT mode is a special case.

AFAIK there's no major push to remove all the other "poorly made" roles. Nor should there be.

In general no one wants roles like Framer or disguiser ect removed but they want rebalance (Espically framer I think it just needs focused visits and something done about spy to "work")

I really think the retri rework keeps in theme of doing it's job just in a different way, Retri was meant to be someone who would help out once town was lacking in "invest power" or "protective power" ect, they could use their ability to revive townies that were most needed. Now it keeps a similar concept of allowing those abilities in general I'd agree that it's bad to remove roles but I feel like this was the best solution making retri both more fun and balanced, While it is a game full of "PRS" (Adding citizen is horrible and will lead to players leaving). Some roles are better then others and that's just a matter of fact, it will generally stay that way just by nature of the game and every game (Different abilities will always be better then others) but there's a way to make the gap between roles smaller I'm all in.

I don't play much Vip myself (sometimes I prefer TT coven when it's there). Generally I think you're wrong about no major push to "rework" (Not outright remove) roles from the game. Retri has just been gaining traction And more hate over recent times it's always been a badly balanced and unfun role, most people would at least agree.

[TomG2001]

when is this patch being released?

[Soulshade55r]

when is this patch being released?

I dunno but have you also had dreams about refreshing the forums checking if the announcements have changed from "206" to "207" just for it to never change then you wake up in real life and "oh boy time to see if the update is out" but then it's not

[joshdabozz]

Hey Townies,

Wanted to give some details on the contents of our next patch expected to be out sometime next week. These are the big ticket items.

Retributionist rework
The Retributionist has been completely reworked to be the good version of the Necromancer. The Ret can reanimate dead Town roles and use their night ability one more time. The Ret will receive important feedback of roles that it controls such as TI results or if a targets defense was too high when reanimating a Vigilante.

Necromancer
The Necromancer will also have information forwarding like the Retributionist does.

Witch/CovenLeader
Witch/CL also gets information forwarding when controlling roles such as Sheriff, Lookout, Spy, Tracker, Investigator, Consigliere. The controlled role will no longer get the feedback making Witch/CL control more of a role blocking effect.

Ambusher
Ambusher will now get feedback when they attack someone

Juggernaut
It will now be much more likely for a Juggernaut to spawn in games.

Taunts
When a dead player taunts someone it will now only be seen by the taunted player and other dead players.

Targets Defense Is Too High
We have standardized this feedback to be more uniform for all cases in which an attackers target has defense higher than the attack. Most importantly Doctor heal and Crusader protection will now give this feedback to attackers, creating more claim space for evil roles with Basic defense.

Dual Targeting UI
Roles with two targets have had their UI improved

Bug fixes

Spy
Fixed a bug that prevented Spy from getting their results on the night they die

Jailor/Pestilence
Fixed a bug that would not show a Jailor died from Pestilence when jailing them

Jailor/Doctor/SerialKiller
Doctor will now properly get feedback when they heal a Jailor who is attacked by the SK they jailed

when is the new patch coming out

[Soulshade55r]

"sometime next week"

aka today, tommorow or sunday

[Ghosty221]

For everyone saying Medium is alright and Mayor is okay

My problem with these roles and Jailor and Transporter, in general, is that they are easily comfortable. I could even add Spy in the mix, but he should be getting reworked either way so I don't care.

The problem with easily confirmable roles is that it lowers Mafia claim spaces; legit the only claims that Mafia can claim is as follows:

Sherrif (The highest claimed role for every evil by the way)
Vigilante (Should only be claimed by Neutral killings, Forger, Godfather, and Mafioso only if he is outed by Invest. DON'T EVER CLAIM VIGILANTE AS MAFIOSO UNLESS YOU MUST DO SO)
Veteran
Investigator (Pretty tough for Mafia to pull off but I've seen some plays)
Bodyguard and Doctor (Really boring claims that are just there if you can't find something)
Escort (Impossible for all roles except Consort also gets absolutely fucked by Spy)

Now for the Situational Claims

Transporter (If there are a lot of Transporters and you can just create a crap ton of chaos)
Retributionist (For one free night. Also don't claim Retributionist as Mafia in a Janitor game. You will get hung)
Mayor (if you legit have no other claim and you are gonna get executed in Jail)


And that's it there are EIGHT ROLES that Mafia can not ever claim if they want to continue playing the game: Jailor, Lo, Med, Mayor, Spy, Transporter, Escort (unless playing Consort), Retributionist

There are Thirteen roles in the game (Excluding Coven town roles and Vampire hunter)

Mafia can not claim 3/4 of the roles in the game, that just sounds unfair to me.

Make roles less confirmable and you will see Mafia winrates skyrocket

You clearly have no idea how to fakeclaim.

Medium is a really easy claim if there is no real medium/retributionist.

Spy is a really easy fake claim for visiting RM, especially consort since they already know jailor will be roleblocked.

Lookout is possible by reading claims and works especially well if you have a blackmailer.

Jailor was never meant to be a role capable of being fake-claimed.

Not every role has to be easily fake-claimable, and most roles are possible to fake-claim, it's just that some take more skill than others. Invest is a relatively easy to claim role, you can just claim to investigate claimers/your own mafia.

[Soulshade55r]

Kinda have to agree with you there

also tougher claims like LO in general have a higher risk as if your will isn't good enough you'll be killed but you'll generally be trusted because it's a "harder" claim.

[FrenchyTheSphee]

You clearly have no idea how to fakeclaim.

Medium is a really easy claim if there is no real medium/retributionist.

Spy is a really easy fake claim for visiting RM, especially consort since they already know jailor will be roleblocked.

Lookout is possible by reading claims and works especially well if you have a blackmailer.

Jailor was never meant to be a role capable of being fake-claimed.

Not every role has to be easily fake-claimable, and most roles are possible to fake-claim, it's just that some take more skill than others. Invest is a relatively easy to claim role, you can just claim to investigate claimers/your own mafia.

I already stated my points, If you want to take the spy gamble or you are a master of making fake dead chat go ahead

[sarysa]

Dual Targeting UI
Roles with two targets have had their UI improved

In what way will dual targeting change? The move to Unity was fantastic in so many ways, but the Unity Dual Targeting UI has always been problematic. I'm probably 200 hours into the new client and still mess this up occasionally (i.e. simply missing the second target entirely), but the fact it takes several seconds to make changes has consistently caused me to take no action or settle on a sub-optimal action despite having 5 seconds remaining. Not to mention it's extremely hard to instruct someone who's new to CL in VIP mode what to do because it's so cumbersome.

I kind of hope the old style is coming back when this patch drops.

[DeltAzumarill]

On the subject of Retributionist rework-
Now that town roles can no longer be revived, will Amne's be able to remember town unique roles the same as other unique roles?

[TrollXDee]

On the subject of Retributionist rework-
Now that town roles can no longer be revived, will Amne's be able to remember town unique roles the same as other unique roles?

Nope. That would mean that a Mayor or Jailor can be remembered. So no. 100% no.

[Brilliand]

On the subject of Retributionist rework-
Now that town roles can no longer be revived, will Amne's be able to remember town unique roles the same as other unique roles?

Nope. That would mean that a Mayor or Jailor can be remembered. So no. 100% no.

I think it makes more sense for the answer to be "yes". The reason the Amnesiac could never remember those roles is gone now, and I note that unique roles were never excluded from the "make Retributionist into a Town-only Amnesiac" suggestion (as far as I'm aware; I didn't read every single post that made that suggestion).

[Soulshade55r]

ahhhh come on it's been longer then "next week" (((

[MysticMismagius]

On the subject of Retributionist rework-
Now that town roles can no longer be revived, will Amne's be able to remember town unique roles the same as other unique roles?

Nope. That would mean that a Mayor or Jailor can be remembered. So no. 100% no.

I think it makes more sense for the answer to be "yes". The reason the Amnesiac could never remember those roles is gone now, and I note that unique roles were never excluded from the "make Retributionist into a Town-only Amnesiac" suggestion (as far as I'm aware; I didn't read every single post that made that suggestion).

Logically, when looking at the scope of what such roles would intuitively be allowed and not allowed to do, it makes more sense for the answer to Azumarill's question to be "yes"
Mechanically, when looking at Town of Salem as a game to be played, and the effects that allowing Amne to remember unique townie roles on that game, it makes more sense for the answer to be "no"

Depending on how you look at it, both answers "make more sense"

[OreCreeper]

On the subject of Retributionist rework-
Now that town roles can no longer be revived, will Amne's be able to remember town unique roles the same as other unique roles?

Nope. That would mean that a Mayor or Jailor can be remembered. So no. 100% no.

I think it makes more sense for the answer to be "yes". The reason the Amnesiac could never remember those roles is gone now, and I note that unique roles were never excluded from the "make Retributionist into a Town-only Amnesiac" suggestion (as far as I'm aware; I didn't read every single post that made that suggestion).

Logically, when looking at the scope of what such roles would intuitively be allowed and not allowed to do, it makes more sense for the answer to Azumarill's question to be "yes"
Mechanically, when looking at Town of Salem as a game to be played, and the effects that allowing Amne to remember unique townie roles on that game, it makes more sense for the answer to be "no"

Depending on how you look at it, both answers "make more sense"

I don't really see why not. Amne only appears in chaos gamemodes like all any where balance doesn't matter, so I don't see why it can't. The change really only affects All Any, Rainbow, and Custom, but again they're all chaos gamemodes.

[Superalex11]

in chaos gamemodes like all any where balance doesn't matter

Please don't perpetuate this myth. See:

The idea of a gamemode being unbalanced as the impetus for its creation is fine, but as AA is as popular as it is - and thus as core to what ToS is as it is - saying it isn't meant to be balanced is right on the edge of saying ToS as a whole shouldn't be balanced. And ultimately, whether or not a gamemode is supposed to be balanced should really have no bearing on that outcome - all legitimate gamemodes should be as balanced as they can be, and as it stands I see no reason for this to not be the case other than "because it's not supposed to."

It does not matter if AA is meant to be unbalanced. Being unbalanced is a point of failure in itself.
The point of "balance" and what "balance" even means is to provide all players with an equivalent value of actually playing. This is most often taken to mean that all players have equal chance of winning, but can also mean that players who have a smaller chance of winning get more value out of that win. It can also mean the value of playing can come from the playing itself, and not from winning.

And to reiterate my point on AA being ToS: I don't have exact statistics to back it up, but in vanilla I would be willing to bet an exorbitant amount of money that AA is either the most played or second most played gamemode. In Coven it's indisputable that CAA is most played.

[MysticMismagius]

On the subject of Retributionist rework-
Now that town roles can no longer be revived, will Amne's be able to remember town unique roles the same as other unique roles?

Nope. That would mean that a Mayor or Jailor can be remembered. So no. 100% no.

I think it makes more sense for the answer to be "yes". The reason the Amnesiac could never remember those roles is gone now, and I note that unique roles were never excluded from the "make Retributionist into a Town-only Amnesiac" suggestion (as far as I'm aware; I didn't read every single post that made that suggestion).

Logically, when looking at the scope of what such roles would intuitively be allowed and not allowed to do, it makes more sense for the answer to Azumarill's question to be "yes"
Mechanically, when looking at Town of Salem as a game to be played, and the effects that allowing Amne to remember unique townie roles on that game, it makes more sense for the answer to be "no"

Depending on how you look at it, both answers "make more sense"

I don't really see why not. Amne only appears in chaos gamemodes like all any where balance doesn't matter, so I don't see why it can't. The change really only affects All Any, Rainbow, and Custom, but again they're all chaos gamemodes.

Superalex basically said everything I’d want to say about the “balance doesn’t matter” point

But Achilles wants to put NB back in Ranked, so even if you refuse to consider the possibility of balance mattering in non-Ranked modes, it still matters

[Brilliand]

I'll add that AA actually has an upside in terms of balance, compared with Ranked: in All Any, there is no rolelist, therefore no Process of Elimination play, and much more opportunities for scum to fakeclaim what they want. All Any, by its very nature, can't support any of the various metas that dominate Ranked (except, sadly, the principle that "if two people claim a Unique role, one of them is lying").

Of course All Any also has numerous balance problems that Ranked doesn't have (Vampires, single-member Mafias, and/or multiple SKs), but it isn't less balanced in every respect.

[kyuss420]

I'll add that AA actually has an upside in terms of balance, compared with Ranked: in All Any, there is no rolelist, therefore no Process of Elimination play, and much more opportunities for scum to fakeclaim what they want. All Any, by its very nature, can't support any of the various metas that dominate Ranked (except, sadly, the principle that "if two people claim a Unique role, one of them is lying").

Of course All Any also has numerous balance problems that Ranked doesn't have (Vampires, single-member Mafias, and/or multiple SKs), but it isn't less balanced in every respect.

Except All Any actually does have a role list... a hidden role list... and Process of Elimination, very much comes in to play late game, when the presence of trappers/escorts/transporters/doctors/crusaders etc are all confirmed. Trapper is a great role for confirming in game roles...

[Steven7]

When is this happening? I am very tired of ret ruining games, lol.

[Soulshade55r]

When is this happening? I am very tired of ret ruining games, lol.

Agreed I really want this patch out