Framer Balance Idea

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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby MaybeLaterx » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:02 am

I think it's important to think in terms of TPLO meta, and a meta where that doesn't exist anymore.

If non-TPLO meta, LO used to occasionally find no visits, or maybe just one. If someone is seen to visit a target that doesn't die, it might actually make that person look townie. Of course, if they're a non-visiting role that is confirmed (e.g. mayor) this confirms the existence of framer (at least to the lookout). LO could also see a player visit themselves, only possible in witch games or framer games (or trans, I guess).

It might not be a huge deal, but for a new player I think selecting two targets at night as a 'framer' would be confusing - am I framing them both? Of course, the description of the role should be clear but I think it could be more elegant to help newcomers. Making the framed target appear to visit the mafia's killing target (GF's target, unless GF is rb'd, then Mafioso's target) means you only need to click one button, and you provide some cover for your killing mafia. If no attack happens, no fake visit happens either.

The frame/focus idea sounds very promising, and I know this is a framer discussion, but I wonder if Disguiser would actually fit better for that change. Disguiser disguises as another player's role, then appears to visit a house (2nd target) AS that player. I think thematically it's better. You fake visiting someone's house as someone else, and if you die you appear as that role. 'Framing' a visit... That doesn't sit right in my mind. They are watching who enters the house. Are you messing with their binoculars or something?

It would be nice to make LO fakeable again, but that's more to do with the meta than the role. With this change, one incorrect result can be covered up by a possible framer game. This might even indirectly help witch.


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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby ScarfVendetta » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:16 am

MaybeLaterx wrote:The frame/focus idea sounds very promising, and I know this is a framer discussion, but I wonder if Disguiser would actually fit better for that change. Disguiser disguises as another player's role, then appears to visit a house (2nd target) AS that player. I think thematically it's better. You fake visiting someone's house as someone else, and if you die you appear as that role. 'Framing' a visit... That doesn't sit right in my mind. They are watching who enters the house. Are you messing with their binoculars or something?

I completely agree: it makes more sense for Disguiser to receive this buff. There are other ways that Framer can be buffed instead (e.g. making fellow Mafia members appear innocent, or being able to choose the investigative results of the framed target).
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:14 am

ScarfVendetta wrote:There are other ways that Framer can be buffed instead (e.g. making fellow Mafia members appear innocent, or being able to choose the investigative results of the framed target).


The problem with those buffs is that they still let the Framer be useless in some possible rolls of the Ranked rolelist.

The Framer needs to have some use against every TI role, just in case that's the only TI role that spawns; unless the Framer is given some ability that doesn't depend on particular Town roles at all (like every other Mafia role has).
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby shapesifter13 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:32 pm

Brilliand wrote:
ScarfVendetta wrote:There are other ways that Framer can be buffed instead (e.g. making fellow Mafia members appear innocent, or being able to choose the investigative results of the framed target).


The problem with those buffs is that they still let the Framer be useless in some possible rolls of the Ranked rolelist.

The Framer needs to have some use against every TI role, just in case that's the only TI role that spawns; unless the Framer is given some ability that doesn't depend on particular Town roles at all (like every other Mafia role has).



This is our end goal. We have plans to make the framer be able to affect every Town Investigative role to some degree. This post was just focused on the idea of framing targets to show to the lookout, and ways that could potentially backfire. So far, my favorite design is allowing the framer's frame target, to show as visiting instead of the Mafioso/Godfather, but this sounds like it might feel more disguisery potentially. Atleast lore wise.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:29 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:The problem with those buffs is that they still let the Framer be useless in some possible rolls of the Ranked rolelist.

The Framer needs to have some use against every TI role, just in case that's the only TI role that spawns; unless the Framer is given some ability that doesn't depend on particular Town roles at all (like every other Mafia role has).



This is our end goal. We have plans to make the framer be able to affect every Town Investigative role to some degree. This post was just focused on the idea of framing targets to show to the lookout, and ways that could potentially backfire. So far, my favorite design is allowing the framer's frame target, to show as visiting instead of the Mafioso/Godfather, but this sounds like it might feel more disguisery potentially. Atleast lore wise.

If we were to make Framer effect ALL TI, then it would be really difficult to effect Spy, as it's ability is really strange and hard to manipulate in a Mafia helpful way.
The only thing I can think of is the Framer's visit isn't recorded as a mafia visit, but whoever the framed person visits is. That way if a Framer (target A) frames an investigator (target B), and the investigator visits target C, the Spy will see mafia visit target C, not target B (plus whoever the other mafs visited). Or just let Framer visit other mafia members :/.

As for Lookout (and Tracker 8-)), I feel like making it seem as though they visit who the Mafioso/Godfather visited is a good idea. However, with the TPLO meta, there isn't much that would be seen by LO, anyway, as they are going to be slurping on the Jailor the whole game.

Psychic is easy whoever is framed can appear as the evil in the vision and can't be in the good vision ez but who cares about coven
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Trollermo » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:47 pm

Well its not easy to make it balance but i have idea for it


Sheriff still same
Investigator have to change to give random resuilts than framer/jester/vampire.. if someone is Spy .. the results going bg/arso/gf or vig/vet/mafioso something random
Lookout : someone claim jailor ... Lookout going on jailor.. framer too .. The true visits is Jailord visited by thomas danforth , Imprism and Kira ... With framer visit change to random 3 visits
Jailord visited by Urahara , james russel , Voltrob
Spy : i couldnt find something .. so i end to the framer cant count as mafia visit
Tracker : the target visit the killed target
Psychic: the framed target is tag with the 3 targets "one or more is evil"
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:21 pm

TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:As for Lookout (and Tracker 8-)), I feel like making it seem as though they visit who the Mafioso/Godfather visited is a good idea. However, with the TPLO meta, there isn't much that would be seen by LO, anyway, as they are going to be slurping on the Jailor the whole game.


in light of this, the "framed person is seen visiting the Mafia kill" proposal should include the "framed person is not seen visiting whoever else they chose to visit". I originally proposed that as an alternative, but I'm convinced at this point that they should go together.

Trollermo wrote:Lookout : someone claim jailor ... Lookout going on jailor.. framer too .. The true visits is Jailord visited by thomas danforth , Imprism and Kira ... With framer visit change to random 3 visits


RNG is bad, but there's an obvious way to fix this.

Assuming the base Lookout nerf from the other thread is changed to "if the Lookout would see 3 or more visits, they just see the number of visits and not the names"...
...the Frame buff can thus be "the Framer's visit counts as 3 visits for Lookout purposes", guaranteeing that the lookout will never see anything useful then visiting the same target as a Framer.

The major problem with this is that it doesn't "frame" the Framer's target in any way, it just gives the Framer the option of essentially roleblocking all Lookouts instead of screwing with the TIs that actively look for evils, i.e. Sheriff.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Mister32505 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:25 am

I've got idea how to make framer interesting.
Let him trigger a game message at the end of other player night. A single message like "You were transported to another location" or "You were attacked but someone healed you".
This way you can make confusion in the game when someone you made think was transported claims transported, but there's no other person claiming it and that person looks sus for being solo transported.
Or you can force a message "You were controlled by a witch", someone claims being witched next day. Thanks to that, exe/jester have easier job to do, which might make one town member die easier.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:25 am

Mister32505 wrote:I've got idea how to make framer interesting.
Let him trigger a game message at the end of other player night. A single message like "You were transported to another location" or "You were attacked but someone healed you".
This way you can make confusion in the game when someone you made think was transported claims transported, but there's no other person claiming it and that person looks sus for being solo transported.
Or you can force a message "You were controlled by a witch", someone claims being witched next day. Thanks to that, exe/jester have easier job to do, which might make one town member die easier.


There's already a role that does that - it's called the Hypnotist. (Unfortunately it's Coven-exclusive.)
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby EmeraldCake » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:19 am

Or just make it so the framed person swaps visits with someone. It's basically "visiting the mafia kill" but with more utility.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby BasicFourLife » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:41 pm

Brilliand wrote:Always making it looks like the framed target visited the Lookout's target is a bit much. That would be more likely to confirm the existence of the Framer and tell the Town which player was framed than to actually cause confusion.

I've previously seen the proposal that if the Lookout is watching the person the Mafia kills, they see the framed person visit that target instead of seeing the Mafia Killer. That would more reliably allow the Framer to mess with the Lookout, without tipping the Town off as to what is going on. (This was included as part of JacksonVirgo's Framer rework, which required two targets as written but would still work pretty well with only one target.)

And - just brainstorming - the opposite idea (the Lookout doesn't see the framed player visit at all, even if they're watching the person the framed player visited) would also usefully weaken the Lookout, and would be more effective against the Jailor meta in particular.

Note, the last part of the change which says-
Spies will see both visits.

Is not how it should work, since focusing is not a visitation action and you don't visit the second person at all as a Framer, therefore only the framed person's visit would be seen by the current version of the Spy. Just wanted to clarify this. Also this is NOT the original creator of the idea and you should give credit to the OG creator. Please do not give credit to people who steal ideas that have already been widely accepted. In the original idea, the bolded idea was not accepted and the Spy part can go the way I mentioned it or be completely invisible like in the original role, but the entire point of the current Spy is to harm all Mafia and Framer shouldn't simply have an unfair advantage over other Mafiosi, therefore for consistency sake what I mentioned is the correct approach. If Spy remains the way it is for now, then Spy should see the framed visit.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:10 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:Note, the last part of the change which says-
Spies will see both visits.

Is not how it should work, since focusing is not a visitation action and you don't visit the second person at all as a Framer, therefore only the framed person's visit would be seen by the current version of the Spy. Just wanted to clarify this.


I think the intent of that part was to give Spies a way to see Mafia members being visited by Mafia, casting doubt on all the spy's "not a Mafia member" reads. It's an anti-spy ability, rather than a judgment on how the powers should naturally interact.

BasicFourLife wrote:Also this is NOT the original creator of the idea and you should give credit to the OG creator. Please do not give credit to people who steal ideas that have already been widely accepted.


JacksonVirgo's idea is different from DragonClaw's idea. Focusing solely on the Lookout part (because that's what's on-topic here), consider three players, A, B and C. The framer (not one of those three) frames A and focuses B, while B voluntarily visits C.

In DragonClaw's version:
Lookouts would see A visiting B, and B visiting C

In JacksonVirgo's version:
Lookouts would see A visiting C, and B not visiting at all

I chose to mention JacksonVirgo's idea instead of DragonClaw's because JacksonVirgo's idea copes better with being force-fit into being a single-target role, which is what shapesifter asked for.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby DeanAdamFry » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:Hey Townies!

We are looking into ways to help improve the framers role in the Mafia as the anti-investigate role. Currently it only affects the Sheriff and the Investigator, leaving the Spy, Lookout, Psychic, and Tracker unaffected. In this post I am going to focusing on the Lookout specifically.

One possibility to improve the framer would be to show the lookout that the framed target visited their target. This, combined with the lookout seeing 3 roles max per night, would mean the framer has more power as an anti-investigative role. As the community, what is your opinion on a change like this. Is there any scenario that this would be a negative? Is there another suggestion to effect the lookout that wouldn't require extra targeting menus for the framer?


Lookout: Show framed target visiting Lookout's target. If framed target is already visiting Lookout's target, they do not appear on the Lookout's results.

Reason: I love your idea and I thought I would add something extra. The idea is if a visiting role is under suspicion, a Framer could frame them and if they are visiting an important role like a Jailor, they will not appear on the Lookout's results, making the visiting role look even more suspicious and will most likely cause a lynch. This will also help with Mafia visiting claims since they can claim they were "framed".

I thought I would also just give a few ideas on what to do with the other investigative roles, chances are people have already suggested them but just in case here you go.

Investigator: Gives random role results instead of just "Framer/Vampire/Jester".

Spy: Framed target and Framer destroy Spy's bugs if they are the Spy's target. Spy receives message "Your target destroyed your bug!"

Psychic: Forces framed target to appear in Psychic's non-Full Moon visions. Framed target cannot appear in Psychic's Full Moon visions.

Tracker: Framed target and Framer cannot be tracked. Tracker receives message "You could not track your target."
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:23 pm

DeanAdamFry wrote:Spy: Framed target and Framer destroy Spy's bugs if they are the Spy's target. Spy receives message "Your target destroyed your bug!"


This combined with the Spy's primary ability would allow the Spy to identify the Framer with 100% certainty (barring a Transporter).
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby shlomopoco » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:16 am

quick idea:
if a framed guy is visited by the lo, then the lo will not see who visited that guy at all that night.

framing jailor could be OP, removing the LO confirming TP meta.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby texer » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:58 am

This is what I think for Framer:

Sheriff: Still the same
Invest: Still the same
Psychic: Framed person counts as evil for purpose of visions.
Tracker: If the tracker tracks the framed person, they are seen as visiting the mafia kill.
Lookout: I would say that if the lookout visits someone who was visited by the mafia, the framed person appears as having visited the target instead of the member of the mafia (there could be problems here if more than one person from the mafia visits the same person though).
Spy: If the spy bugs the framed person, it will be listed as a member of the mafia visiting the framer rather than the framed person (effectively ending the Jailor meta).
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Helicooler » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:15 am

shapesifter13 wrote:Hey Townies!

We are looking into ways to help improve the framers role in the Mafia as the anti-investigate role. Currently it only affects the Sheriff and the Investigator, leaving the Spy, Lookout, Psychic, and Tracker unaffected. In this post I am going to focusing on the Lookout specifically.

One possibility to improve the framer would be to show the lookout that the framed target visited their target. This, combined with the lookout seeing 3 roles max per night, would mean the framer has more power as an anti-investigative role. As the community, what is your opinion on a change like this. Is there any scenario that this would be a negative? Is there another suggestion to effect the lookout that wouldn't require extra targeting menus for the framer?

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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:27 am

texer wrote:Lookout: I would say that if the lookout visits someone who was visited by the mafia, the framed person appears as having visited the target instead of the member of the mafia (there could be problems here if more than one person from the mafia visits the same person though).


Oh, a full-Mafia version of the "save the Mafioso" idea... I think this is too risky. The problem is, what if two lookouts see two of the Mafia visits? The Framed person is confirmed to be either framed or Transporter (since they "visited" 2 targets). Also, this prevents RMs from visiting for the purpose of fooling the Lookout while there is an active Framer.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby texer » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:46 pm

Brilliand wrote:
texer wrote:Lookout: I would say that if the lookout visits someone who was visited by the mafia, the framed person appears as having visited the target instead of the member of the mafia (there could be problems here if more than one person from the mafia visits the same person though).


Oh, a full-Mafia version of the "save the Mafioso" idea... I think this is too risky. The problem is, what if two lookouts see two of the Mafia visits? The Framed person is confirmed to be either framed or Transporter (since they "visited" 2 targets). Also, this prevents RMs from visiting for the purpose of fooling the Lookout while there is an active Framer.


Yeah there are still a few quirks in the Lookout situation here; I had to spend a while coming up with something which could potentially mess with the Lookout's results while at the same time making the Framer serve its purpose. The purpose of the Framer is to make it so that the framed person appears to be a member of the Mafia. This is why I don't really like the idea of the Framer making it so that the Lookout who visits the Framed person gets to see no visits, even if that would end the Jailor meta.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Amythyr » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:24 pm

Imo Framer Should have following characteristics:

1. Framing should be Astral
2. Framer should be allowed to choose what to frame them as.
3. Framing Should persist entire game like a hex does.
4. Framing should be not visible to spy

There is no need for any other buffs imo.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:20 pm

Amythyr wrote:Imo Framer Should have following characteristics:

1. Framing should be Astral
2. Framer should be allowed to choose what to frame them as.
3. Framing Should persist entire game like a hex does.
4. Framing should be not visible to spy

There is no need for any other buffs imo.


This still makes Framer useless in any game without a Sheriff or Investigator.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby MaybeLaterx » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:17 pm

In fact, Framer not appearing to visit would make faking doctor impossible if LO is confirming who visits TPLO claim.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:31 am

What Brilliand said

If Lookout sees an extra person every night it'll probably hurt Framer more than help as soon as it's figured out, and two Lookouts visiting different targets and seeing the same visitor will immediately reveal what's going on

Having the framed target appear to visit the same target as the Mafia Killing role (Mafioso/Godfather) will do a lot more for helping fool Lookouts, and it will also help reduce their ability to act as a protective role by reducing its accuracy at 1-for-1 trading the killer.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:07 pm

Gonna post my full list of buffs I'd like to see.

- Frames last until a TI sees messed up results as a result, at which point they disappear. Frames can still be placed nightly.
- Spies cannot see the Framer's visits, but instead see a member of the Mafia visiting the Framer's target's target. (What a mouthful)
- Trackers see the framed target visiting a random person.
- Framed targets will always appear in a Psychic's evil vision, as well as the actual evil. If there are multiple framed targets, a random one will appear in the vision.
- Framed targets cannot appear in a Psychic's good vision, unless there are too few non-framed good people. This does not remove the frame.
- Lookouts who watch the framed target will see up to three random visitors depending on who else visits the framed target. (No visitors = 3 randos added, 2 visitors = 1 rando added, etc.)

Not so sure about the Lookout one, but I can't think of anything else that wouldn't be either super OP or really bad.

Also I hope this isn't too much of a bump.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:14 am

meh RNG on Lookout generally not good, so that has the same issue as this current Lookout
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that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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