Witched Retri

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

I was in a Town Traitor game as a Traitor Retributionist. On some night around N3, I decided to use a dead Investigator to invest a medium claim. I got the results (Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, they were vet baiting), but on that same night I was witched (the witched message came after the results). I didn't think much of it, but on the next night, I was able to use the same dead investigator to investigate someone else. I think it's because the Retributionist has a higher priority than Witch, but I don't think I should be able to preform the ability AND get to keep the body. I also don't know if being the Traitor had anything to do with it.

[PatrykSzczescie]

I've just watched a video where ret intended to reanimate LO to see visits on jailor. The ret was witched and saw vet's visit. It's not shown who the ret was witched into, but I think that ret was witched into vet and the ret "reanimated" living vet into visiting the intended watched target.

To explain ret mechanic that might help replicate the bug, I define the following 3 objects:
Ability - the role ability of dead player who ret intends to reanimate.
Reanimation - the player who ret visits to reanimate.
Target - the player the reanimated is meant to visit.

So you choose dead town Reanimation to learn their Ability to use on living Target which you choose as the second. Then, Reanimation cannot be picked again.

In your scenario, you use investing Ability by choosing dead Investigator player as Reanimation. Then, you choose a Target who you want to invest.

Now, the witch has ability to control a player into another player. Before ret rework, all roles that could be controled, could only choose 1 person to use the ability on. Now, the ret can choose 2 people: Reanimation and Target. This mechanic could be easily overlooked and cause bugs like this.

So how the witch on ret works? The witch controls only ret's Reanimation, which is the first person the ret chooses. Since controled people can only visit living targets, the ret's Reanimation is alive. Ability and Target are not affected at all. The ret has similar controling power to the witch, which means that the alive Reanimation is forced to visit Target. Since Reanimation wasn't the person the ret intended to reanimate, the ret can choose the same person again tonight.

In your scenario, you're controled so your Reanimation is different, but Ability and Target stay so you still have investing ability on Target but you also force the living Reanimation to visit the Target. Tonight, you could choose the same dead person because the person has never been the Reanimation.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

I've just watched a video where ret intended to reanimate LO to see visits on jailor. The ret was witched and saw vet's visit. It's not shown who the ret was witched into, but I think that ret was witched into vet and the ret "reanimated" living vet into visiting the intended watched target.

To explain ret mechanic that might help replicate the bug, I define the following 3 objects:
Ability - the role ability of dead player who ret intends to reanimate.
Reanimation - the player who ret visits to reanimate.
Target - the player the reanimated is meant to visit.

So you choose dead town Reanimation to learn their Ability to use on living Target which you choose as the second. Then, Reanimation cannot be picked again.

In your scenario, you use investing Ability by choosing dead Investigator player as Reanimation. Then, you choose a Target who you want to invest.

Now, the witch has ability to control a player into another player. Before ret rework, all roles that could be controled, could only choose 1 person to use the ability on. Now, the ret can choose 2 people: Reanimation and Target. This mechanic could be easily overlooked and cause bugs like this.

So how the witch on ret works? The witch controls only ret's Reanimation, which is the first person the ret chooses. Since controled people can only visit living targets, the ret's Reanimation is alive. Ability and Target are not affected at all. The ret has similar controling power to the witch, which means that the alive Reanimation is forced to visit Target. Since Reanimation wasn't the person the ret intended to reanimate, the ret can choose the same person again tonight.

In your scenario, you're controled so your Reanimation is different, but Ability and Target stay so you still have investing ability on Target but you also force the living Reanimation to visit the Target. Tonight, you could choose the same dead person because the person has never been the Reanimation.

I know how the process worked. Reanimation has a priory of 1 meaning its effect happens before the Controlling happens. After the controlling, the Reamination target is changed, meaning the Reanimation target was “never selected”, causing you to only be left with the effect of the reanimation (in this case, investigating) since it happened before the Controlling. I’m just pointing out that this probably shouldn’t be the case, and you should have 1. no results, or 2. the witch gets the results.

[PatrykSzczescie]

[...] meaning the Reanimation target was “never selected”, causing you to only be left with the effect of the reanimation (in this case, investigating) since it happened before the Controlling.

Your theory doesn't explain vet being visible as visiting in LO report.

My theory was, as witched ret you're "reanimating" a living player into visiting your target pick, so this could have an effect such as:
- reanimation target dying to alerting vet if you picked vet as a target;
- reanimation target (even when non-visiting) being shown in LO reports as a visit to your target.

Not sure if the reanimation target use their ability on ret's target as well.

[ScarfVendetta]

Necromancer has control immunity, so the Retributionist should also be given control immunity.

[kyuss420]

Necromancer has control immunity, so the Retributionist should also be given control immunity.

Yea, well, technically, all non visiting roles have control immunity..... but, its not like witch/CL can control your ghoul, as it is the ghoul that is visiting, not the ret/necro.

but old ret could be controlled away from resurecting (choosing the role in the graveyard), so it seems that this is still registering as happening... even tho it isnt. which is why the ret could choose the same dead player again the next night.

So the rets priority 1 control takes place, (ghoul does its thing, ret gets his info) then the witch/CLs control is telling the system it didnt take place (because its ret, and the code must still be there for old ret) which ''resets'' the rets control of that particular ghoul.

Thats my theory anyway..... probs wrong, who knows.... above my pay grade.

[ScarfVendetta]

Necromancer has control immunity, so the Retributionist should also be given control immunity.

Yea, well, technically, all non visiting roles have control immunity..... but, its not like witch/CL can control your ghoul, as it is the ghoul that is visiting, not the ret/necro.

but old ret could be controlled away from resurecting (choosing the role in the graveyard), so it seems that this is still registering as happening... even tho it isnt. which is why the ret could choose the same dead player again the next night.

So the rets priority 1 control takes place, (ghoul does its thing, ret gets his info) then the witch/CLs control is telling the system it didnt take place (because its ret, and the code must still be there for old ret) which ''resets'' the rets control of that particular ghoul.

Thats my theory anyway..... probs wrong, who knows.... above my pay grade.

Retributionist and Necromancer are visiting roles, it's just that they can only visit dead players...

EDIT: Being unable to visit also has nothing to do with control immunity. Plenty of non-visiting roles such as Survivor are not control immune.

[PatrykSzczescie]

Retributionist and Necromancer are visiting roles, it's just that they can only visit dead players...

Old ret used to not visit when controled (once I sent the ret into alerting vet and it didn't work), so I'm not sure how the new ret works, as the rework didn't mention visiting mechanic.

[OngakuSensei]

I'm just chiming in here to report a similar occurrence; I was just Retri in a ranked practice game and I was able to use the same BG two nights in a row to protect mayor and kill mafia both nights because I was witched.

[ScarfVendetta]

Retributionist and Necromancer are visiting roles, it's just that they can only visit dead players...

Old ret used to not visit when controled (once I sent the ret into alerting vet and it didn't work), so I'm not sure how the new ret works, as the rework didn't mention visiting mechanic.

That's a valid point, although there are other visit-based mechanics that these roles do affect. A Spy will see the Necromancer visit a dead player, and I think that both roles can be observed visiting by a Tracker. They are essentially in the same boat as Amnesiac.

[kyuss420]

Retributionist and Necromancer are visiting roles, it's just that they can only visit dead players...

Old ret used to not visit when controled (once I sent the ret into alerting vet and it didn't work), so I'm not sure how the new ret works, as the rework didn't mention visiting mechanic.

That's a valid point, although there are other visit-based mechanics that these roles do affect. A Spy will see the Necromancer visit a dead player, and I think that both roles can be observed visiting by a Tracker. They are essentially in the same boat as Amnesiac.

Like Scarf said.... the new vet doesnt visit either, like necro, they only visit the graveyard (and do this from home). Its their corpse that does the visiting in play.

But I think Im correct in assuming the rets priority is being transferred to the rets corpse, when the corpse should be using its own priority... (according to other bug reports of rets corpse taking priority over transporters).... so the corpse is acting, then the witch/CLs control is taking place on the ret, when either:

- the control shouldnt affect the ret - he can still summon ghoul and choose who it targets (control immunity) - ret (target 1) priority 1 - ret (target 2 - corpses target) priority of corpses priority
or
- the control should be taking place first and the ret should be unable to summon a corpse that night, as the control made him target someone else (like old ret). - CL (target 1 - the ret) priority 1, (target 2 - ret controlled away from graveyard) priority 1, ret (priority 2 - doesnt summon corpse as he was controlled away and targeted whoever CL sent him to)

But whats happening is, the rets priority 1 is transferring to the ghoul, so the ghoul is acting before the control takes place, Then the ret is controlled and targets someone else which is what the system is registering as him clicking on.
so basically the prioritising atm is - ret (target 1) priority 1 - ret (corpses target) priority 1, trans (priority 2), CL/witch (priority 3)

[sarysa]

Still happens. Here's from a VIP game:
First shot: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2214836234
Second shot: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2214837224
Proof that RC is not Necromancer and it's not a coincidence: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2214838416

My pet theory is the CL changes some targeting variable despite Retributionist being control-immune, and that variable determines which corpses have been spent. I wouldn't be surprised if CL could also "spend" a living person, i.e. control ret to a living Vigilante. Has this been tried?