Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

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Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Sun May 24, 2020 2:48 pm

On the unity version, you would die the night you gain defence upon being attacked.

https://imgur.com/a/OGRsIDd

On the web version, you would survive the night which you gain defence when you are attacked.

https://imgur.com/a/i4hSWgr

If this is indeed a bug, please make sure that it is patched in the next update.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby kyuss420 » Mon May 25, 2020 4:27 am

Ive had both happen to me on Web version....
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby KAKERMAN23 » Mon May 25, 2020 4:38 am

That's weirdly inconsistent. Maybe it has something to do with the priorities of the killers...? Do you know if you were protected in any way?
Regardless, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be the first instance.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Mon May 25, 2020 8:33 am

KAKERMAN23 wrote:That's weirdly inconsistent. Maybe it has something to do with the priorities of the killers...? Do you know if you were protected in any way?
Regardless, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be the first instance.


ALL killers with the exception of Ambusher, Coven Leader, Necromancer, Hex Master and Medusa (all of which coven roles have the Necronomicon) have the same priority of 5.

If I was protected, I would not have died, it's blatantly obvious.

Also, I completely disagree that Juggernaut should die when gaining defence upon being attacked.

And I think the developers do too. Since on patch 3.1.14, they introduced a feature that Juggernaut would remove poison when gaining defence, which shows they are against the first instance.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby KAKERMAN23 » Mon May 25, 2020 8:48 am

Fair point. Regardless, it's inconsistent, which is never good in a game like this
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:16 am

https://imgur.com/a/tZH8nb8

UPDATE.

I was just in a game where a Vampire bit Juggernaut on defence night, and Juggernaut survived. I think it's something to do with the row it is positioned.

https://town-of-salem.fandom.com/wiki/A ... e#Priority

I would suggest move Juggernaut right above Vampire Hunter in terms of priority, so that he can survive all Basic Attacks the same night.

In addition, lower all other attacking actions to 5.

For instance.

Ambusher's priority is 1. I agree with this, but make his attack happen at 5.

Coven Leader's priority is 2, so I assume both controlling and draining happens at the same time, but I think add a new one for Coven Leader so the drain happens after Juggernaut attacks on defence night.

You get the point here, so I won't be adding anymore examples.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:09 pm

Confectionery wrote:I think it's something to do with the row it is positioned.


Or rather, the order the players joined the lobby.

That's how the Witch and Transporter edge cases work, anyway.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:59 am

Confectionery wrote:https://imgur.com/a/tZH8nb8

UPDATE.

I was just in a game where a Vampire bit Juggernaut on defence night, and Juggernaut survived. I think it's something to do with the row it is positioned.

https://town-of-salem.fandom.com/wiki/A ... e#Priority

I would suggest move Juggernaut right above Vampire Hunter in terms of priority, so that he can survive all Basic Attacks the same night.

In addition, lower all other attacking actions to 5.

For instance.

Ambusher's priority is 1. I agree with this, but make his attack happen at 5.

Coven Leader's priority is 2, so I assume both controlling and draining happens at the same time, but I think add a new one for Coven Leader so the drain happens after Juggernaut attacks on defence night.

You get the point here, so I won't be adding anymore examples.


Once you start messing with priorities, it screws over a lot of other in game mechanics. I wouldnt suggest messing with those for the sake of an inconsistency with a very rare role. Besides he isnt supposed to have defence at all on night 3,HE GAINS DEFENCE AFTER HIS N3 KILL, so theres no point changing priorities so that he does.

Since Juggernaut doesnt gain the defence ability until AFTER the 2nd kill, any time you dont die after being attacked n3 is a bonus, therefore the only fix needed would be to lower juggernauts priority, so that he actually does die when attacked n3, instead of surviving n3 which shoudnt happen. (personally i think he should either have defence from n1, or be able to kill from n1, but personal opinions dont really count here)

tl/dr - surviving n3 as jugg is a glitch, but no one really cares because the role is so hard to win with anyway :P
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby KAKERMAN23 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:02 am

Kyuss is right, it is likely a glitch. One way you can think about this is by comparing it to amnesiac; they don't get any basic defense that the role they are remembering has until the next day, so naturally, if they are attacked with basic attacks, they will die, even if they remember Pestilence. Juggernaut should be the same.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Brilliand » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:36 am

KAKERMAN23 wrote:Kyuss is right, it is likely a glitch.


Everyone in this thread already knew there was a glitch here, one way or another.

Kyuss's point is simply that Juggernaut dying should be the norm, not Juggernaut living.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:29 pm

Except he shouldn't.

On 3.1.14, as I already stated before, Juggernaut was now made to remove poison when gaining defence, which shows that Juggernaut is originally meant to live when attacked on defence night.
Last edited by Confectionery on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby shapesifter13 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:18 pm

Yeah, that isn't a great user experience to be told you have defense as you die. There is probably something we could do to improve that at the very least. Probably along the lines of hiding the you gained defense message if you are killed that night.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:09 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:Yeah, that isn't a great user experience to be told you have defense as you die. There is probably something we could do to improve that at the very least. Probably along the lines of hiding the you gained defense message if you are killed that night.


So by saying this, you're not fixing the problem that causes Juggernaut to have an inconsistent chance of dying on defence night?
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby shapesifter13 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:17 pm

The defense isn't given until after the kill succeeds. The intended result should be if they die that night, then they die. We shouldn't give them a message about improved defense unless they survive the night.

So mechanic working as intended, messaging could be improved to not be misleading.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Superalex11 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:33 pm

Here's a simpler question for you then, shape: Do you believe it's inconsistent for a jugg to not gain defense on the night they get the kill for that ability, while a jugg would remove poison on the night they get the kill for that ability?

Note that this isn't a question of implementation, and thus night priority jargon is mostly irrelevant. This is a question of abstraction; of what should be; of what makes sense.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:33 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:The defense isn't given until after the kill succeeds. The intended result should be if they die that night, then they die. We shouldn't give them a message about improved defense unless they survive the night.

So mechanic working as intended, messaging could be improved to not be misleading.


https://youtu.be/YF2q-txbZuU?t=666

In this video, his kill succeeds and he survives the night even though someone attacks him.

Bear in mind, he was NOT protected by any TP roles that night.

https://youtu.be/nGswmAZ_jxw?t=327

As shown in this video too, Medi got no notification when attacking someone, which indicated that her kill failed since her target got healed.

This situation, did NOT happen to me.

https://imgur.com/a/OGRsIDd

In this picture, I got the notification showing I got defence.

When a Juggernaut get's a notification saying they gained a new ability, it means their kill succeeded.

In my scenario, my kill succeeded, granting me Basic defence, yet I still get killed by a Vigilante.

No "message bugs" here.

Superalex11 wrote:Here's a simpler question for you then, shape: Do you believe it's inconsistent for a jugg to not gain defense on the night they get the kill for that ability, while a jugg would remove poison on the night they get the kill for that ability?

Note that this isn't a question of implementation, and thus night priority jargon is mostly irrelevant. This is a question of abstraction; of what should be; of what makes sense.


Except it doesn't make any sense to somehow die on the night where my kill succeeded and would therefore lead to the scenario on the first video.

In addition, this isn't the only time this happened to me. Mafioso was also able to kill me when gaining defence.

https://imgur.com/a/DZSQ1wl

In this picture, Insidious, who was a vampire, bit Gloryhammer, who was the Juggernaut that game when he got his defence kill and survived it with no TP roles on him.

I brought the priorities up because I saw that Vampire was below Juggernaut and Mafioso/Vigilante were above Juggernaut, which I think correlates to the issue at hand.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby shapesifter13 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:42 pm

There is inconsistency for sure. I will look into this more
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:50 am

Confectionery wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:The defense isn't given until after the kill succeeds. The intended result should be if they die that night, then they die. We shouldn't give them a message about improved defense unless they survive the night.

So mechanic working as intended, messaging could be improved to not be misleading.


https://youtu.be/YF2q-txbZuU?t=666

In this video, his kill succeeds and he survives the night even though someone attacks him.

Bear in mind, he was NOT protected by any TP roles that night.

https://youtu.be/nGswmAZ_jxw?t=327

As shown in this video too, Medi got no notification when attacking someone, which indicated that her kill failed since her target got healed.

This situation, did NOT happen to me.

https://imgur.com/a/OGRsIDd

In this picture, I got the notification showing I got defence.

When a Juggernaut get's a notification saying they gained a new ability, it means their kill succeeded.

In my scenario, my kill succeeded, granting me Basic defence, yet I still get killed by a Vigilante.

No "message bugs" here.

Superalex11 wrote:Here's a simpler question for you then, shape: Do you believe it's inconsistent for a jugg to not gain defense on the night they get the kill for that ability, while a jugg would remove poison on the night they get the kill for that ability?

Note that this isn't a question of implementation, and thus night priority jargon is mostly irrelevant. This is a question of abstraction; of what should be; of what makes sense.


Except it doesn't make any sense to somehow die on the night where my kill succeeded and would therefore lead to the scenario on the first video.

In addition, this isn't the only time this happened to me. Mafioso was also able to kill me when gaining defence.

https://imgur.com/a/DZSQ1wl

In this picture, Insidious, who was a vampire, bit Gloryhammer, who was the Juggernaut that game when he got his defence kill and survived it with no TP roles on him.

I brought the priorities up because I saw that Vampire was below Juggernaut and Mafioso/Vigilante were above Juggernaut, which I think correlates to the issue at hand.


As I said, living through a n3 attack is the bug. Jugg should die if attacked night 3 (unless poisoned n3, becuase then he has defense when the actual poison kill happens - n4) because he doesnt gain the defense ability until the following morning.

With your logic you should rampage n4 instead of n5, but you dont, because you dont gain rampage until AFTER the night 4 kill, just like you dont gain defense until AFTER (not during) the night 3 kill.

The title of the thread should be ''Juggernaut somehow living on defence night''
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby cowslayer7890 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:09 am

Wow this thread is really interesting. I didn't expect this to be inconsistent. I found out about this forum post because I noticed in youtube studio it said that 1% of viewers came from blankmediagames.com, and I was curious as to why. A quick google made me find this forum. Interesting how this stuff works. It's also cool to know that I really cheated death there.

In case I didn't make it clear, I'm the guy in the first video linked.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:49 am

Well Flash version is now dead, so no more survivng n3 for poor ol Juggy
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Brilliand » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:49 pm

kyuss420 wrote:Well Flash version is now dead, so no more survivng n3 for poor ol Juggy


Flash has nothing to do with it. Juggernaut living or dying is a server-side thing.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:49 am

Brilliand wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:Well Flash version is now dead, so no more survivng n3 for poor ol Juggy


Flash has nothing to do with it. Juggernaut living or dying is a server-side thing.


Except it was only on the flash version where he lived through n3 attacks
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:57 am

kyuss420 wrote:Except it was only on the flash version where he lived through n3 attacks


How do you figure?

It was inconsistent behavior, not something reliably wrong, so just because no one has reported it yet on the (relatively new) Unity version doesn't mean it isn't still happening.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:43 pm

Confectionery wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/DZSQ1wl

In this picture, Insidious, who was a vampire, bit Gloryhammer, who was the Juggernaut that game when he got his defence kill and survived it with no TP roles on him.


It is still happening. Juggernaut survived a Vampire bite on N3, the night which he got defence. At the same time, no TP roles were on Gloryhammer.
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Re: Juggernaut somehow dying on defence night.

Postby Confectionery » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:08 pm

Brilliand wrote:Flash has nothing to do with it. Juggernaut living or dying is a server-side thing.


https://town-of-salem.fandom.com/wiki/A ... e#Priority

Imagine if Veteran had the same priority, and could attack someone each night, in which he gains Basic defence upon attacking. If he performs his night ability, he is gauranteed to survive a Basic attack due to the high priority.

Since Juggernaut is way down with a priority of 5, some roles can kill him due to their higher priority.

The issue is priority positioning. Nothing server related.
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