Vampire Hunter Rework

Old Role Ideas

Vampire Hunter Rework

Postby Kiyosen » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:33 pm

I am waaaaaaay too late to the party. But that's mainly because of college and me just being too paranoid. Since I'm that paranoid, it's either now or never with this post so I'm just gonna do it now. Since this also seems to be a very touchy subject, there's going to be a lot of debatable things in mind. So what are your thoughts?

Note: This used to have a Vampire rework as well but I realized at one point that community backlash for reworking Vampire would seem too much so I went back to this thread(after a long time ignoring it lol) and removed it. I personally support just removing them from Ranked and making BMG revoke that "promise" to have all roles in Ranked(which was what was blocking me from suggesting more simple options for Ranked as well). To those curious, it was a ToS-adapted version of FM's Stalker, which wasn't really needed anyway.

Hunter/Vampire Hunter (Town Protective) [WIP]
Spoiler: DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR THIS IDEA! THIS IS MERELY A VERSION OF FORUM MAFIA'S MARSHAL!

Description: You are a woodsman with a strong and feared presence. OR IF VAMPIRE HUNTER: You are a wanderer who specializes in scaring off Vampires and other trespassers.

Goal: Lynch every criminal and evildoer. (Stereotypical Town goal)

Attributes:
  • Choose to accompany someone each night.

Special Attributes:
  • You will scare off one person who visits your target, preventing them from doing their night action.
  • The priority for scaring is: Killing Roles>RBers/Mafia Deception/Witch>Other>Transporter OR IF VAMPIRE HUNTER: Vampire is first priority.
  • Scaring goes through Role-block Immunity. [DEBATABLE]
  • You have one self-heal. [DEBATABLE]

Additional Information:
  • Transports take priority over scaring so scaring the Transporter does not do anything.
  • Like other protectors, you cannot scare someone from targeting someone who was jailed.
  • Targets with a limited ability who are scared off still use up one use.
  • In case of a priority tie, it becomes a first-come/first-serve basis. [DEBATABLE]

Notification text:
  • Sheriff notes: Your target is not suspicious.
  • Investigator notes: Your target likes to accompany others. They must be an Escort, Hunter/Vampire Hunter, or Consort. (Using my list like a rebel)
  • Consigliere notes: Your target likes to hunt in the woods. They must be a Hunter.
  • Scared Off: Someone occupied your night. You were roleblocked. (Role-block Notification)

Achievements:
  • Win as a Hunter 1, 5, 10, 25 times.
  • Successfully scare somebody away.
  • Successfully scare somebody away from you.
  • Successfully scare a non-Town role away 3 times in one game.
  • Successfully heal yourself from an attack.

Reason for Idea/Summary:
This is basically my rework of Vampire Hunter, which is just plain bad design due to it depending on another role in order to exist. Role list bias isn't good either. Though if the devs really have to name the role Vampire Hunter, then it can potentially meet the "hunt down and stake the Vampires and protect the Town" requirement lore-wise by just saying that it tracks down Vampires' next potential victims(hunts) and scares off people(protect the Town) with its anti-Vampire weaponry(threatening to stake?). Anyway, we need more Town Protective roles so a Marshal-like role would be really nice. I also do not take much, if any, credit for this idea though. Give it all to Forum Mafia.

Debatable Things in Mind:
  • This role idea is currently WIP so expect any kind of changes to the role, even a whole concept change.
  • Should this role be able to scare Vampires away from the Mayor? If the devs really want to keep the name "Vampire Hunter", I'll just say yes.
  • What should the priorities be for scaring? If the name "Vampire Hunter" is kept, then Vampires will be its first scare priority.
  • Should scaring go through Role-block Immunity? I'm for this as it's supposed to be a protector against non-lethal actions. Not being able to block Consorts and Witches would make this role weak IMO.
  • Should this role have a vest or a self-heal? Or should it just have a one-use ability that scares everyone who targets it?
  • Do not worry about lore/flavor text. If the name is kept, then the current lore/flavor text for Vampire Hunter will be used.
Last edited by Kiyosen on Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:27 am, edited 9 times in total.



(Credits to anklebits for the TG sig)
This is how I feel when I get Survivor or Amnesiac:
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
Kiyosen
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Wandering in the realm of the "afterlife" (UTC -5)

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Skulldug13 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:16 pm

[*]If you are killed, everyone who was converted will die the next day.

[*]You cannot be killed at night. (Night Immunity)


The top won is stupid, Vampire would never win, it is luck based
Then the Bottom would make Vampire OP
Plz Balance m8
RNG is fun isn't it? -

Image
Grave Digger
User avatar
Skulldug13
Benefactor
Benefactor
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:40 am

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Kiyosen » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:26 pm

Skulldug13 wrote:
[*]If you are killed, everyone who was converted will die the next day.

[*]You cannot be killed at night. (Night Immunity)


The top won is stupid, Vampire would never win, it is luck based
Then the Bottom would make Vampire OP
Plz Balance m8

-I fail to see how this is mainly luck-based. Plz explain your reasoning m8
-Note that this is a Neutral Killing role. Without Night Immunity, you get the problem of dying to Mafia or Vigilante like the Werewolf when it only had Full Moon Night Immunity.



(Credits to anklebits for the TG sig)
This is how I feel when I get Survivor or Amnesiac:
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
Kiyosen
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Wandering in the realm of the "afterlife" (UTC -5)

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Skulldug13 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:35 pm

Kiyosen wrote:
Skulldug13 wrote:
[*]If you are killed, everyone who was converted will die the next day.

[*]You cannot be killed at night. (Night Immunity)


The top won is stupid, Vampire would never win, it is luck based
Then the Bottom would make Vampire OP
Plz Balance m8

-I fail to see how this is mainly luck-based. Plz explain your reasoning m8
-Note that this is a Neutral Killing role. Without Night Immunity, you get the problem of dying to Mafia or Vigilante like the Werewolf when it only had Full Moon Night Immunity.


Ok let me state how this is luck bases

Imagine this, Your playing town of Salem and your a....Medium!So your doin your biz then you get bit!So your doing your biz as Vampire and there are 4 vamps.2 Mafia and 1 vh, So vampires out number mafia and lynch one!So now 2 mafia
So normal talk geting ready to lynch mafia.When suddenly the main Vampire dies!So your screwed since there is 2 mafia, lynch one!YOur DEAD!THE NEXT NIGHT!!!
VAMPIRES GET THERE POWER IN NUMBERS!
1 Vamp would be Screwed
2 vamps Screwed
3 slittly screwed

CONGRATS YOU MADE VAMPIRES UP
AND VH MORE OP
RNG is fun isn't it? -

Image
Grave Digger
User avatar
Skulldug13
Benefactor
Benefactor
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:40 am

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby PolyesterHomes » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:44 pm

First off, having everyone converted die when you do is a terrible idea, as it screws with both balance and common sense. This can easily have the entire town die due to a lucky Arsonist dousing and igniting them leading to a quick victory for Mafia or Neutrals, and forces town to execute vampire last to prevent the risk of losing majority.
"Whisper in the dark. The battle may yet be won."
User avatar
PolyesterHomes
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:08 pm
Location: This Post

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Athamae » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:30 pm

I don't even wan't to know where this idea possibly came from.
In death, there is life, but in life, there is only death.

Image



Favorite Roles: Arsonist, Veteran,Blackmailer
User avatar
Athamae
Civilian
Civilian
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:35 pm
Location: The Eye of Eternity

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Kiyosen » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:02 pm

I see why you're saying it's bad now. Since I see you saying Vampire in plural, you do not really understand this role idea. There is no conversion at all. Town is still Town, Mafia can be "converted", etc. Read the disclaimers please... :/
PolyesterHomes wrote:First off, having everyone converted die when you do is a terrible idea, as it screws with both balance and common sense. This can easily have the entire town die due to a lucky Arsonist dousing and igniting them leading to a quick victory for Mafia or Neutrals, and forces town to execute vampire last to prevent the risk of losing majority.

This Vampire re-work is really bad in the early game since someone can just say they're converted(read first statement) on Day 2. Instant Vampire hunt like with Arsonist. It has a pretty bad Investigator result, is countered by Lookout and simple role-blocking in exchange for an easier win condition("convert" everyone who isn't NB or NE). If you do not abuse its bad early game, then you screwed yourself.
Athamae wrote:I don't even wan't to know where this idea possibly came from.

I'd rather have a regular NK role(like Shadowalker) than a cult with a broken mechanic. This is an attempt to make Vampire not a role-conversion concept while still having a risk of trade-off between Vampire and confirmed Town roles.

Emphasizing this again: "CONVERTING" DOES NOTHING EXCEPT GIVE ITS VICTIM A NOTIFICATION AND HELP IT ACHIEVE ITS WIN CONDITION!

EDIT: Changed Hunter's scare message to the regular role-block message to help Consort and decrease confirmability.



(Credits to anklebits for the TG sig)
This is how I feel when I get Survivor or Amnesiac:
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
Kiyosen
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Wandering in the realm of the "afterlife" (UTC -5)

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:34 pm

Absolute gold.

10/10

Best Vampire idea that keeps the spirit of conversions.

Way better than mine.

Devs, do this.


Literally nobody else even read the role cards. Come on guys, put some effort into understanding something before you criticize it.
Last edited by orangeandblack5 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby murat1996 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:35 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Absolute gold.

10/10

Best Vampire idea that keeps the spirit of conversions.

Way better than mine.

Devs, do this.


True that, but isn't this still in work in process?
33-40-3 : My FM Record

Hosted: VFM13

My discord is fluffymurat#2318 if you really want it I guess...it's now a legacy name.

My discord is just fluffymurat
User avatar
murat1996
[Forum Mafia X] Winner
[Forum Mafia X] Winner
 
Posts: 2810
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: Somewhere in New York

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:46 pm

Yep. Which is a small part of why I think it's that much better than the rest. Kiyo understands that this may need to change, and he leaves that possibility open.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Kiyosen » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:42 am

I am thinking about making the "conversions" silent but let it keep its shaky investigative results. Makes it more manageable against the Lookout and role-blockers like with silent douses. Also buffs Arsonist if both get silent marks. Thoughts? Would it make this role too powerful or would it be fine? Because it feels like this role as it is now would go on par with the current Arsonist.



(Credits to anklebits for the TG sig)
This is how I feel when I get Survivor or Amnesiac:
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
Kiyosen
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Wandering in the realm of the "afterlife" (UTC -5)

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby sunbird1002 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:01 pm

Sadly, I need to disagree. You even admitted in the Disclaimers this would make a vampire a type of Arsonist. However, I do agree to this to a extent, Vampire NEEDS to change, as it isn't a perfect idea now. People can destroy them too easily, and it is one of those roles that seems to be out of place. Yet, does it really need a revamp as bit as this?Come to think of it, I think after this message OrangeandBlack and Kiro and the others will scream YEEESSSS!
There are many flaws with the vampire now, but we can at least target these flaws before suggesting a whole revamp of a role. Here are some problems I seen with vampire.
1.People don't like being converted sometimes. Answer:N/A, but it is reportable, so I think no one does this often
2.Mafia cannot be converted, meaning it has a disadvantage over the Mafia. Answer: Make Vampire at least have a effect on the Mafia, for example, The Youngest bites a member of the Mafia. The next night, he would be Roleblocked, saying, ''You feel weak tonight, so you stayed at home' The vampire could convert after one failed conversion.
So, I am not trying to say this idea is bad. I am trying to show there can be a less radical way to change Vampire.
Image

Name: Harvey Greater
Suspicion Level: High
Favourite Occupations: Transporter, Investigator, Jester
Least Favourite Occupation: Mafioso, Consort, Escort

Most recent Role Idea:
Soothsayer
sunbird1002
Doctor
Doctor
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 4:59 pm

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:08 pm

I fully disagree.

Vampire and Vampire Hunter are complete trash and they need a complete rework.

Simple buffs and nerfs aren't going to change that.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Kiyosen » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:10 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:Sadly, I need to disagree. You even admitted in the Disclaimers this would make a vampire a type of Arsonist. However, I do agree to this to a extent, Vampire NEEDS to change, as it isn't a perfect idea now. People can destroy them too easily, and it is one of those roles that seems to be out of place. Yet, does it really need a revamp as bit as this?Come to think of it, I think after this message OrangeandBlack and Kiro and the others will scream YEEESSSS!
There are many flaws with the vampire now, but we can at least target these flaws before suggesting a whole revamp of a role. Here are some problems I seen with vampire.
1.People don't like being converted sometimes. Answer:N/A, but it is reportable, so I think no one does this often
2.Mafia cannot be converted, meaning it has a disadvantage over the Mafia. Answer: Make Vampire at least have a effect on the Mafia, for example, The Youngest bites a member of the Mafia. The next night, he would be Roleblocked, saying, ''You feel weak tonight, so you stayed at home' The vampire could convert after one failed conversion.
So, I am not trying to say this idea is bad. I am trying to show there can be a less radical way to change Vampire.

Problem #1 is my main issue. It leads to many ethical controversy. Asking to be converted being reportable doesn't completely fix this problem. There's more underlying issues in it. I will definitely say yes that it needs a revamp from role-conversion(hence I am anti-role conversion), as you expected. But I will say no that it needs to be too radical that it removes the "convert someone into a Vampire" concept, which I basically made similar to a douse. If Vampire Hunter really needs to "hunt down and stake the Vampires and protect the Town", then my Hunter idea isn't gonna cut it(although I would love Marshal in the game). A new VH idea would be better if we want to keep the VH Kickstarter promise.

EDIT: Actually, If VH has to be "hunt down and stake the Vampires and protect the Town", then lore-wise, I can just say that it tracks down Vampires' next potential victims(hunts) and scares off people(protect the Town) with its anti-Vampire weaponry(threatening to stake?). *shrug*



(Credits to anklebits for the TG sig)
This is how I feel when I get Survivor or Amnesiac:
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
Kiyosen
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Wandering in the realm of the "afterlife" (UTC -5)

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Mroz4k » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:54 pm

First, a question:
Do conversions go through Night immunity? You didnt actually say in the OP if they do (and I am not going to read comments) so I will just ask.

I am going to assume they dont. So, basically, the only Vampire enemy is another NK, and Godfather. Anyone else is fair game in his case.

There is a LOT of controversions to this suggestion. But I agree with you - the biggest one is the fact that Town needs more incensive to hang the Vampire - actually, anyone needs incensive to hang Vampire, at all. The moment he bites them, they cant hang him - if they do, they die. Why would they hang him, then? If it means they win by not hanging him, or they die if they do...
there really is no decision to be made, at all.

Its more likely the converted targets would just hang out the rest of Town / Mafia who was not yet converted, and then Vampire win.

So, if you want to see this at all, the targets would need to "not know" they were converted. But that brings another controversion - someone goes up as an accused Vampire, he says - you, you, you, you and you are all converted. Hang me, you will die tommorow. Game might even end... aand we are at Stage 1. Noone would ever want to lynch a Vampire.

I am sorry, this Vampire suggestion is just soo complicated, and controversial I really dont see a way to make it work.
__________________
Hunter... uumm, Marshal.

I like the idea of Marshal, being a Town Protective. Most people dont see it as very powerful but it has some really great applications, imo.
Anyways thats really not something I would have in mind for "fighting the conversion mechanic" so its really not a Vampire Hunter change at all.

Especially in your case, where conversions are a death-sentence in case of hung/killed Vampire, there would NEED to be a Role that can fight the conversions - by curing them, removing them, etc...
then both of your suggestions would make more sense, together.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:04 pm

Disagree.

VH should not hardcounter conversions. Softcounter at best.

Also, because the "converted" cannot win with the Vampire, they have every reason to hang him (maybe allow converted non-NK Neutrals to either not die or win with the Vamp?). If not, they are guaranteed to lose. Plus, consider that each "converted" person would already be dead in the case of an SK, so them all dying isn't as bad as it may seem.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Mroz4k » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:36 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Disagree.

VH should not hardcounter conversions. Softcounter at best.

Also, because the "converted" cannot win with the Vampire, they have every reason to hang him (maybe allow converted non-NK Neutrals to either not die or win with the Vamp?). If not, they are guaranteed to lose. Plus, consider that each "converted" person would already be dead in the case of an SK, so them all dying isn't as bad as it may seem.


Hmm.
I guess it would make more sense if its just the Vampire who wins, not the converted players.

But still, the ability to make them all die if they hang him, or if he just dies? There is a lack of any sort of protection from conversions, what-so-ever.

Maybe a Doctor healing would remove a conversion. In that case, there would be something that could be done about this. (in that case, it would also be neccesary for targets to know they were converted) (also lore-wise, there were references to cure for Vampirism, dont see why not)

If this is how it worked, I could get behind this. Still, I find it a bit broken, in many ways.

Imagine scenario: 4 Town left, one BG in is, 2 Mafia left (but roleblocked so Maf cant kill) and their identity is known, plus unknown Vampire. Vampire has 3 Towns (including the BG) converted. Town is going to lynch both Mafia, one by one - but Vamp is trying to convert the last Town, and is killed by BG who protected him. Boom. Town instantly looses, because Bodyguard did his job.

This is very controversial and I can see this role being very disliked because of this kind of scenarios.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:31 pm

If that was a SK instead of a Vampire, Town would've already lost. So, your point is kind of invalid.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Mroz4k » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:44 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:If that was a SK instead of a Vampire, Town would've already lost. So, your point is kind of invalid.


4 Town left, 1 is BG. 2 Mafia left, unable to kill at all.
SK left. SK tries to attack a Town member - BG protects. SK + BG both die.

3 Town left, 2 Mafia, still unable to kill.
3 is Majority - 3 Town votes Mafia, hang. Night passes by, Mafia cant kill. 3 Town left, 1 Mafia. 3 Town vote Mafia, hang.
3 Town left. Town wins.

Your argument is invalid. :D

(unless you suspect that because SK, all the three Town would be dead... in which case the scenario makes zero sense, because with SK in place, the game would play out differently.)

If you want to compare it to another NK, it would need to be Arsonist - and if that went down the same way, BG would kill Arsonist, and the Town would win.

Killing everyone who was converted as a reward for discovering him/Vampire getting randomly killed is insane. It would be the most swingy role there ever was...
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:05 pm

Less so than a true conversion role though.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Kiyosen » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:55 pm

Conversions are the equivalent to the Arsonist's douse so technically yes. The differences between this and the Arsonist:
-Goal is to have everyone who is against you(Town, Mafia, other NK roles) "doused".
-Its "ignite" occurs when the role dies.
-Investigation results

Don't really know what you think the complicated part is but people tell me that I'm a complex person anyway so yeah...

In your scenario(4-2-1 after a lynch), I'd say the Vampire made a bad play if the Mafia wasn't "converted" yet since they also need to be "converted" and that the Bodyguard's main protection target would be the unconverted Town, though Town was already in a bad spot to begin with. They also need to win too ya know...but if all Mafia were "converted", then Town would have won. If only one was "converted", then Vampire basically decides who wins. If it "converts" Mafia, Town wins. If Town, Mafia wins. If both attack the protected target, then if Vampire dies, then it depends on the unconverted Town role and if the Mafia member dies, then depending on whether the killer was converted or not, Town decides who wins.

I might also consider making its early game even worse by making its first two conversions give a notification instead of having no notification at all and if that's not enough for you, have "conversions" work like guilt where if the Vampire dies, you go into guilt the next night instead of dying immediately(helps "converted" people get more time when Vampire is night-killed, promoting night-killing Vampires instead of lynching them). Remember that I'm trying to make its early game terrible so give me any suggestions to help with that. Inversely, its late game is supposed to be amazing with this kind of strategic controversy and personally, I'm fine with strategic controversy in the late game as that would make the game more skill-based as opposed to ethical controversy with role-conversion.

Currently doing other things so I might be forgetting more things than I usually am.



(Credits to anklebits for the TG sig)
This is how I feel when I get Survivor or Amnesiac:
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
Kiyosen
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Wandering in the realm of the "afterlife" (UTC -5)

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Mroz4k » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:21 am

I think it would be a bit more balanced if the "Conversions" acted as an uncertain way of dying - similar to guilty voters on Jester.

If Vampire dies, he can choose who of his converted targets is going to die.

This seems a lot more balanced suggestion to me then the everyone converted dies. This can give a Vampire on Trial a leverage, saying he converted this and this and this person, and if they vote, they will kill one of them. If one of these people is going to be a Survivor, you can bet he is definitedly going to vote innocent (cause why loose now, right?), same with the people who are the last members of their team (aka one last Mafia member would rather not piss off Vampire, and would rather try to vote innocent, relying on Town to hang him - and on Vampire feeling salty to kill a converted person who voted guilty.)

Maybe, to balance this out a bit more - for every 2 converted targets, the dead Vampire can make a Converted target die.

Another suggestion - a dead Vampire can choose, every night / every FullMoon night and kill one of his converted targets. This doesnt kill everyone at once, but acts as a "disease" of a sort. Still, it allows every other Allignment to get a chance at "making it".

In any of these cases, the conversions would need to be annonymous.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:59 am

But

That's still a huge nerf, especially compared to SK.

Your second idea makes it better, but still.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Mroz4k » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:13 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:But

That's still a huge nerf, especially compared to SK.

Your second idea makes it better, but still.


If you go Kiosen´s original way, then Vampire hanging or Vampire just randomly dying mid-game becomes the most swingy role there ever was.

Yay, Town is doing great job - they demolish the Mafia, work together well, they found a solid strategy to go - oh, BG died, protecting someone... who was it? A Vampire?

OH fuck... so many corpses... wait, they are all the Town... well, Now Mafia gets to kill last Town and GG. BG did his job, but that also means he immidiatedly
killed the entire Town. Because of Vampire.

Want another reason why this cant be the initial role?

GF and Vampire are cheating together. Vampire knows who the Mafia members are - so he converts them. And now the Vampire is holding Mafia by its balls - you screw me, it means a certain loss for you.
Now I dont know about you, but I generally dislike Roles that can be heavily abused to cheat.

Thought of yet another way to do this:
From the moment Vampire dies, the people start dying one-by-one in that order in which the Vampire converted them. The first converted target dies first, etc etc etc. If 3rd converted target died during the night before, then on third night since Vampire´s death the 4th converted target dies, etc etc etc.
This is also pretty balanced out.

I am never going to agree with a role that can instantly change the outcome of a game because the player playing it sucks and gets himself killed. How is that fair? Arsonist makes it fair - if he is discovered before, no kills. If he is not discovered, he can kill the entire Town in one night. Thats all fair, because they were given the time to find him, and get punished for not doing so. It doesnt work logically the other way around.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Vampire/VH Rework (Anti-Role Conversion/Counter)

Postby Kiyosen » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:15 am

Mroz4k wrote:Thought of yet another way to do this:
From the moment Vampire dies, the people start dying one-by-one in that order in which the Vampire converted them. The first converted target dies first, etc etc etc. If 3rd converted target died during the night before, then on third night since Vampire´s death the 4th converted target dies, etc etc etc.
This is also pretty balanced out.[/size]

I can settle for 2 at minimum. 1 is too slow considering that the kill rate with the Mafia is generally going to be 1 person per night. Using this suggestion now. I was also thinking about making this role a Poisoner-type role too a long while back but not in the way you put it. I might as well put that one up now too.

I think the mentality of "possibility of having to get rid of your confirmed Town member for killing the Vampire" that I was using screwed this up hard. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of that concept but I thought of it as a fundamental during the time. Without this mentality in mind, I think I can make a better idea. Hopefully it meets the lore conditions. So now my actual question now is "What counts as both meeting the Kickstarter promise for Vampire and Vampire Hunter without causing ethical controversy". Because I feel like some creative lore loophole can be utilized here and that would be awesome.



(Credits to anklebits for the TG sig)
This is how I feel when I get Survivor or Amnesiac:
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
Kiyosen
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Wandering in the realm of the "afterlife" (UTC -5)

Next

Return to Role Idea Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest